Friday, March 02, 2012

About the meaning of effective 2-dimensionality and strong form of holography

The answer to the questions of Hamed in previous posting involved a lot of talk about effective 2-dimensionality. Effective two-dimensionality boils down to the statement that partonic 2-surfaces and 4-D tangent space data - briefly 2-data - at them code for physics. The partonic 2-surfaces and 4-D tangent space data - briefly 2-data - at them code for physics. What does this statement mean? The answer is not trivial and one can actually consider two alternative answers, which turn out to be equivalent.

  1. The preferred extremal property for Kähler action assigns to both space-like 3-surfaces at boundaries of CDs and to light-like 3-surfaces defined by the orbits of wormhole throats at which the signature of the induced metric changes, the same unique space-time surface apart from delicacies due to the failure of strict determinism of Kähler action. This implies that partonic 2-surfaces and their tangent space data (briefly 2-data) at the boundaries of CDs and sub-CDs code for physics, in particular for the preferred extremal of Kähler action. This represents strong form of holography following from strong form of GCI.

  2. This statement has very simple realization leading to the first option. The formulas for WCW metric involve only data about partonic 2-surfaces and their tangent space. As a matter fact, these formulas emerged much before the realization of strong form of general coordinate invariance and the role of light-like 3-surfaces and ZEO as the only mathematically sensible expressions for WCW metric.

    1. This suggests that there is a gauge symmetry in the sense that all space-like 3-surfaces with same 2-data are gauge equivalent. The gauge symmetry would be generalization of ordinary 2-D conformal symmetry acting on the light-like boundary of CD, which is also metrically 2-D. This was the original interpretation about the situation and is very attractive still.

    2. But what about the dynamics of light-like wormhole throats? Does this dynamics possess gauge invariance too or does the choice of space-like 3-surfaces fix the light-like wormhole orbits completely as the idea that preferred extremal of Kähler action including the orbits of wormhole throats is unique apart from the delicacies caused by the failure of the strict determinism of Kähler action? It seems that one can have gauge invariance due to generalized conformal symmetries associated with light-like 3-surfaces also now: at this time it corresponds to the Kac-Moody symmetries assignable to the isometries of the imbedding space. Light-likeness is the key word and obviously selects space-time dimension four in a unique position mathematically (how many times I have said this in the hope that colleague could manage to win his natural arrogance and listen what I am saying!).

      This interpretation was originally suggested by the properties of the CP2 type vacuum extremals identified as first order model for the lines of generalized Feynman diagrams have light-like random curve as M4 projection. The dynamics is non-deterministic and one has gauge invariance mathematically identifical with conformal invariance restricted to real line. Quite generally, the two kinds of conformal summetries acting as gauge symmetries of WCW metric give rise to gauge invariance for both space-like 3-surfaces and light-like wormhole throat orbits.

  3. There is however also another option. For this option the two time like coordinates transversal to space-like 3-surfaces and wormhole throat orbits respectively would define deterministic dynamics locally - that is in small regions of 3-surface. WCW would not contain all possible space-like 3-surfaces but only those 3-surfaces obeying a deterministic dynamics in space-like directions transversal to the partonic 2-surfaces that it contains. An analogous statement would be true about the orbits of wormhole throats. This option does not seem too plausible as such.

    One can however consider the interpretation in terms of gauge fixing forcing deterministic dynamics just at it does in gauge theories. Since conformal invariance is gauge invariance, one could fix the gauge by choosing one representative for both space-like and light-like 3-surfaces consistent with 2-data without loosing any information about physics. The two options would be equivalent. This interpretation seem to be the most plausible one to me.


Hamed said...

Dear Matti,
i was reading your comments and the posting. they were very useful at this level for me. thanks a lot:).

◘Fractality◘ said...


What is the TGD model for binaural beats and "dream machine" as they apply to EEG? How exactly do they affect EEG?

Ulla said...


L. Edgar Otto said...

Maybe that link should be removed Ulla,

Matti, I accessed your pdf paper from your postings and will give it a once over but in a very informal first blush... I was impressed, but it is still difficult to see where our ideas link or not... please feel free to correct my interpreted thoughts- otherwise what I have been posting lately will look very much in disagreement with some of your principles when in fact some of them are the same and have been for a long time.

This is the philosophy of enquiry.

The PeSla

◘Fractality◘ said...


In continuation,

I've read your books on EEG and I can't recall any explanation for Gamma waves.

Gamma waves have been proposed by some to be associated with transcendental states of meditation. These states are also associated with Theta waves. However, Gamma wave frequency ranges from 12 Hz to 30 Hz. Theta waves correspond to a slower frequency range of 4 Hz to 7 Hz.

Why are these two different frequency ranges associated with similar states of consciousness?


L. Edgar Otto said...


A most excellent question if we assume these brain waves are intimate to consciousness in some way.

The explanation most likely has to do with the idea of generations as in the particles and hierarchies of chemical analogs- the way Matti suggests in his use of the dark matter like terms. It is certainly and electrical phenomenon, or on the chemical thus quantum level.

So I certainly would not say you could not find the answer in the TGD view. Try reading it under theata waves and see what happens :-)

The PeSla said...

Dear Fractality,

in binaural beats the difference of frequencies is experienced and this difference is very small, and if I remember correctly also the frequencies are below the threshold for hearing. Correct me if I am wrong.

*In amplitude modulation at higher frequencies the amplitude for a sum of waves with different frequencies contains part in which amplitude varies slowly creating kind of humming.

*Now the frequencies is below the threshold of 20 Hz for being audible. Amplitude modulation below 10 Hz is however "heard" . Difficult to imagine what this experience might be.

I have said something about this somewhere but do not remember what;-)!. I am now hardly working trying to understand quantum p-adics so that I am unable to check what I have possibly said.

In any case, there is a new element to add to TGD and EEG, and I will do it sooner or later. This is how classical fields - now em stimuli induced by sound stimuli to right and left ear with different frequencies - affect particles at fundamental level.

*The particles are simultaneously topologically condensed at (touch simultaneously) these two space-time sheets which are extremely near to each other (10^4 Planck lengths is the scale, CP_2 size). Particles experience the sum of effects of fields: the fields are not summed.

*This mechanism would create the primary em stimulus after sound waves have generated em waves What brain does after this step for this primary stimulus is interesting and complex.

I guess that neuroscientist would answer differently;-). Both stimuli create nerve pulse patterns conducted into brain and the frequency difference somehow yields the perception. I do not however know what is the detailed explanation. said...

Dear Fractality,

The frequency scale of EEG waves seems to correlate with the character of conscious experience. Beta waves are associated with sensory input and motor activity and in states like anxious overactivity beta wave spectrum becomes chaotic. Alpha correlates with states of consciousness in absence of stimuli, say eyes closed, and are often associated with creative states of mind. Theta waves do not correspond to conscious-to-us experience - or stating it even more cautiously - an experience that we could remember.

In TGD Universe these waves would allow communication from the biological body to the magnetic body and control and coordination of biological body by it. EEG rhythms would not as such communicate information (evoked responses would do this) but most probably keep different parts in coherence: they would be like a work song for neurons.

All EEG rhythms would have this coherence creating aspect. Alpha waves would create coherence in 100 ms time scale. 40 Hz waves in 25 ms time scale. Experience of coherence would be in both cases in question. In meditative states 40 Hz gamma waves appear in the beginning: coherence is first created in shorter 25 ms time scale and after that in longer 100 ms time scale. Experience would be similar.

I remember that gamma waves are assigned with transitions in which new perceptive pattern is generated. When you look at a picture - I do not remember what ...-gram it was called - looking like a completely chaotic set of dots, it can happen that you begin to see a beautiful 3-D pattern. Finnish researcher Revonsuo found that 40 Hz activity is associated with thetransition in which a stable percept emerges, but not with percept itself as the main stream believed. Coherence would be generated in a scale corresponding to 40 Hz and would be direct correlate for the organization of a chaotic set of points to a beautiful picture with meaning. Is coherence in 10 Hz scale created later?
Or do we have only a memory of this experience after the heureka phase?

◘Fractality◘ said...


Many thanks. I will read through your responses with vigor and purpose.

I find it fascinating that the influencing of EEG can be done visually with a "dream machine." Same process as auditory modulation of binaural beats?

If I'm understanding correctly, EEG is a epiphenomenon of the relationship of the magnetic body and the biological body.

EEG and Faraday cage could yield insight? Apparently, Faraday cage cannot block Earth's magnetic field which I understand to be a mediator/resonator/amplifier of magnetic flux tube communications.


Ulla said...

I highly respect peoples health and that's why I added the warning, PeSla. I think this is very interesting, though, but people must know it has risks. As Matti explained it is near the hum.

The effect behind bineural beats is in the brain lateralization. To beat right and left brain crosswise is very effective, also just tapping with fingers in a pulse frequency have strong effects on brainwaves. Against these sound effects you have no shield, usually. As not against intrasound either, which usually creates the hum, nor against magnetic fields that can be another source.

The gammawaves are usually linked to consciousness, as instance believed for the 40 Hz beat, but I think this is a misinterpretation. It has been shown that in the phase when you understand things, realize it, then the 40 Hz drops dramatically. This is the 'jump' creating the consciousness and dropping the tension/noise seen in the 40 Hz or more waves.

EEG does not reflect consciousness, which is highest in low waves? EEG does reflect noise/disturbances and potentials? It is not the higher the better. Very high noise is charachteristic of seizures, shizo attacks, panic etc. Then you have to compress your mind/attention to a very small spot (left brain), or 'fleet out' of the body (right brain half?). This can create fantastic sensations and is maybe what this bineural beat is doing? Taylor has described this very well.

Noise creates coherence. Maybe that's also what the neural beats do? They create the wave on which 'mind' can work, nothing else. The neural 'dance', literally. Not the qualias.

Different coherent states (40-30-20-10-<1 Hz) as windows for p-adics? Maybe? Human body size is about 60 Hz., very near our electric transmission lines. Cells has a much higher frequency (mm). DNA resonate with UV-waves (why?). The lower the frequency the bigger the field. Translate this in coherence and resonance. Note that humans react also for intrasound below 1Hz (size of Earth?) but not with awareness. In animals it creates fear. So emotions do also have a p-adic link and wear cognition. Emotions are often 'universal' meaning the whole body, right brain half.

Right brain half is also interpreted as being quantal, left classic. This is what I now study.

Memories are stronly linked. Also implicit memories that we do not 'know' of.

Ulla said...


brain waves are very tangible, fragile. The problem in researching them is making them somewhat stable, that is shielding from sensory impulses other that those researched. Almost anything can change them. Also meditation calm them down. In many ways we are the drummers membrane. said...

To Fractality,

I would not say that EEG is epiphenomenon - just a passive side effect as materialist says consciousness to be. Rather, EEG is a correlate of consciousness and signature for the existence of the magnetic body.

In TGD model it is key element of communications and control between magnetic and biological bodies. In standard neuroscience EEG remains a side effect although the fact is that it correlates strongly with consciousness: even reading of thoughts is becoming possible by studying EEG. Just this one expects if EEG is a communication tool.

One important difference to standard neuroscience is that there is no point in attempts to assign EEG resonance frequencies to brain circuits: this is only needed in the models of brain as electric circuitry.

In TGD Universe These resonance frequencies have totally different origin: Josephson frequency and its harmonics associated with membrane potential and cyclotron frequencies assignable with biologically important ions.

Ulla said...

This link is quite interesting. Note, EEG is just a tool, but what makes the mind realizing the message?

The message is split in several paths, also left - right, analyzed in many different ways. This also makes the crossing of senses possible, like hearing colors. The sensitivity (resonance?) must differ between brain halfs, seen in the microscopic structure. Maybe there are even imaginary primes (emotions?)

Correlation is just correlation. Higher EEG maybe contains more information, or maybe not. Amplitude is also only noise. And silent EEGs can contain tremendous amounts of information.

The ionic resonances are the secondary ones. The secondary coherences, tertiary and so on...

Neurotransmitters are also strong modulators, especially those linked to emotions (serotonin, dopamine, noradrenaline, acetylcholine) and autonomic nervous system. They are obligately essential for any movement, also thoughts are movements.

My goal is to make a simple model for this.

"there is no point in attempts to assign EEG resonance frequencies to brain circuits" There are different types of effects, one is a global effect and then there is no point, but at least between brain halves and brain lobes there must be a difference, for time (as for Libet). Without this there are difficulties explaining the health effects? Today we often see the brain is individually wired, which is quite natural when we know it is wired as consequence of Nurture, and plastic.

Memories are also often smeared out?

Ulla said...

Cognitive modulation of emotions.
As to see oneself from above :)

◘Fractality◘ said...


That book appears to have some of the relevant material on the subject.

Would negentropic entanglement with magnetic body be the correlate of "being myself" and living life without the noise of ego/brain?

Regards. said...


The book contains summary of TGD inspired theory of consciousness. An attempt to overview. It is of course somewhat out-of-date. I have not worked with these topics with the intensity that I used to work between 1995-2005.

Negentropic entanglement between magnetic body and biological body yes. But also between bio-molecules. The negentropic entanglement between biomolecules would rely on magnetic flux tubes connecting the molecules and containing dark particles having large Planck constant. Topological quantum computation made possible by the braids formed by flux tubes and reconnection of flux tubes. These could be the basic elements of quantum dynamics of living matter.

The function of information molecules, neurotransmitters, modulators, hormones, etc... would be very closely related to the generation of negentropic entanglement between distant parts of biological body.

I have talked about this in several books: for instance in

◘Fractality◘ said...


Thanks for clarifications.

Since we're discussing consciousness, I'll ask if you've ever interpreted Russell's paradox within TGD.'s_paradox

I ask because the quantum jump (recreating entire universe at highest level) which is an integral part of TGD consciousness can be seen as a form of Russell's paradox.

More concretely, the world as it is could have been created yesterday and everything in it could be interpreted as retrospective simulation.

The inherent artificiality in reconstruction also comes to mind. Quantum jump from one quantum history to another. A seemingly appropriate characteristic of re-invention, wouldn't you agree?

◘Fractality◘ said...


I forgot - you differentiate between geometric time and subjective time. Does this mean the recreation only occurs in subjective time?


Ulla said...

Did you see this?

L. Edgar Otto said...

Well, brain waves can be used to track many things like the effects of hearing caused by lead in the atmosphere (a cousin did research on them and took MMPI and other tests in the industrial Czeck environment after the cold war) He too went to Harvard. This connection made national news for his 15 minutes of fame.

It seems you are not reading my blog so it is another case of an amazing synchronicity.

Some of these issues I have recently discussed on my blog- yes, those types of neutrinos Ulla, thanks. And Fractality, there can be other types of time or clearer understanding of it in the terms like subjective we use.

Fractality, "last thursdayism that idea is called" Do you know know that in my case at least the world was created at Y2k at the dawn of the millenium- such paradoxes are resolved by the multiverse and many-worlds and a much deeper idea as to what is consciousness.

These astute observations do not detract from the coherence of the TGD model.

Within a body, Matti, such effects to reach out at a distance - only I take it a little further than the quantum phenomenology of partial creations and vanishings of the universe as a whole.

The PeSla

L. Edgar Otto said...


It has also been known and I experienced myself in a dark farmhouse by candlelight listening to horror stories on a public radio rebroadcast with an earphone. On one side of my head the story seemed very scary, on the other side it did not seem much of anything at all !

How do we shore up these general ideas?- for after all, one has to believe in things like ESP for them to work and if you don't believe the do not exist. This is more than Russel's paradox.

What is the underlying geometric structure as physically grounded that would make the local connection of the theory of flux tubes more up to date? Is this term "negative entropy" and idea of systems theory as a life force, also out of date or neglected, a global idea that requires not so much the regeneration of physical and mental elements but the overall decay at some point of an organism?

That was a peak time for me too and I am colored by the theories of the time to get up to date again then. But it is clear that the reaction against very subjective ideas, well new age ideas, as in anthropology is buried deep now into unbelief into Dawkins and the like, despite the openness at the universities to new ideas back then so it will be quite startling when the pendulum goes back again while you have lived against the mainstream in a sort of reversal of entropy of entropy.

Memories, Ulla, are independent of the circuits and from one view of access to them they are not smeared out as in the physical case of the overwriting of neurons. All codes of discrete and continuous infinite path histories are in a sense equivalent- if indeed we take the brain and consciousness at least as a quantum system.


Ulla said...


nobody today can explain long-term memory, and it seems it is non-local or 'smeared out'. Maybe possessed by the magnetic body?
A common definition is a representation, used also by Matti. Memory and time is required to create consciousness by the 'weaver'. The 'wever' has to link new material/information into the state reduction function every time s/he takes a turn. But also old, this is why memories change. And why therapies work, because also the structure (in brain) changes. Note the near link to woking memory (p-adics?).

Pb is near the Rn chain and Rn has been linked to hearing, as in earthquakes. It was discussed last year? I would gladly take a link.

Dawkins and New Age are not linked as far as I know? Our human body can sense electrons and protons, so why not also quantum numbers? They are after all seen in the wave equations, and can be measured.

Brain lateralization is a fantastic thing :)

L. Edgar Otto said...

Ulla here is a link- I am not sure what links you are asking for. I am working off line and only come to the coffee shop to post so I still mostly google my head.

Interesting point about radon and of course lead is the end of radiation is it not?

Your are probably right that nobody today can explain long term memory- not in just neurological terms anyway, or for that matter protein chemistry that affects it like do the hormones. But you do not know this, for I or Matti or someone outside our sphere may have such an explanation.

The usual idea so far has been long term memory is in the DNA and short term in the neuron connections. But this link I recalled from reading the mag last week or so shows that the science is still new and surprising, it suggests a sort of superimposition of old and new memories that do connect somewhere, alive and dead at the same time thus quantum effects?

Memory is information, and that can go into the vacuum, as in the two types of neutrinos your link mentions, Majorana etc... if we are to find strict connections between the wormhole mouths. But it is certainly true we can replace memories such as of trauma in early childhood rather than make them vanish or rather inaccessible by a material pathway as when the brain is injured.

My Majorana we transfer all of the numbers on the Riemann sphere as the instantaneous signal message and not just local relativistic boosting that takes time of some organic quadrupole 4D or double 2D surfaces.

But yes, it has a lot to do with magnetic bodies if I understand your term, monopoles anyway- search the new word 'magneticity' for quantum like phenomena of the "spin ice", Are we the weaver or the woven?

I will have to thing about some of your other assertions here. Let us not underestimate the power of the weaver to heal for that can work.

The PeSla

Ulla said...

DNA is really also a kind of long-term memory and it can change its structure depending on use (epigenetics), but usually that memory is seen as heritable. There is btw a missing hertitability too, phantom 'genes'?.

My point that nobody can explain long-term memory was exactly that we don't know. It seems not to be neural, nor in the synapses. The potentiation is not the same as memory. So it seems mostly be a non-local phenomenon.

Memories are in biology representations in short time scale.

Ancient philosophers have thought of the question are we the weaver or the woven. We are not in our hands, we can loose it, nor a leg, kidney, stomach part etc. We can loose quite many parts without loosing our self. Damasio has researched the question and he saw a small difference, I think, when we lost all the sensory inputs from our body, but if we only were left with the sensory inputs from our face we would be saved. Did we loose also them we got unconscious (brainstem got not enough noise to create the wave?). So these inputs are a drive only? Is the wave planed out we go unconscious, but that doesn't mean we loose all our consciousness, only that we loose our awareness. There are cases when patients in coma wake up and remember what has happened during their coma.

I asked for a link lead - hallucinations.

I did not mean to beginning 'debate' here, sorry.

Ulla said...

There is one more misconception that need to be enlighted. Our nerve systems are not made mainly for enhancing transmissions (it is one function, yes), but made for inhibitions of transmissions. Even our left brain greatly diminishes the amounts of signals treated. This has made us falsely believe in the cause and effect?

Also the impact/consciousness from all cells in our bodies need to be emphasised. Most cells are bacterias. Note, also mitochondrias is a 'symbiotic bacteria'. Organs are more like more or less independent 'fields' of consciousness, etc. Our 'thoughts' rises from body. Today we cannot say what a thought is, other than it is a (re)action.

When I said the noise creates the wave only, I need to take away the word only because in that noise is also the information, that we select out and use. Patterns are also used in computation, different fractions have different use.

Today I see LT memories as topological insulator islands (hidden energy 'fields') anywhere in our bodies and also outside our bodies, seen in induction. This is the quantum numbers (spin etc.).

To see the body as fractionalized mirror of topolocical holistic parts is quite revealing. (Sub-CDs within sub-CDs...). said...

To Fractality:

re-creation gives rise to the experience of subjective time.

The superpositions of space-time sheets are replaced with new one for given CD. Maybe even new CDs are generated in quantum jump. The correspondence between subjective time and geometric time meaning that we can see how subjective time develops by looking at clock reflects this correlation.

One cannot however say that the causality of geometrc time involves volition. It is superposition of entire *evolutions with respect to geometric time* which are replaced with new one in quantum jumps.

This is consistent with the fact that the contents of experience are not localized in single t=constant snapshot. Sensory experience is about time interval of 80 ms. We have memories and memories can be seen as contributions to the experience from geometric past from temporal distance of years. We can even re-experience our childhood experiences. My grandma lived his last years in her childhood and youth!

L. Edgar Otto said...


That sentiment seems real to me too, the reliving of previous experiences of time- it has a name I forget, but why not take it literally as the early experiences apparently do affect our memories and later development (newscientist).

My very difficult to read but simple post today seems to me to discuss casual diamonds if I read what these are from the results you say they imply here in the neuroscience questions. I concur with the general concerns and scope of proper answers. I hope we are not still too vague.

Ulla, the microtubils, or even that between synapses like NH3, do I understand if such is related to consciousness they are not in a particular place in the nerves or brain. And of course we can inherit culture and general memories via the germ cells and DNA, but this requires teleology and action at a distance and that as accessible as our memory system- we do have a debate here, of the rather productive kind :-)

Cause and effect is the issue of which my post suggests a deeper foundation in the understanding and perhaps the substance of our consciousness. This is why it is called Topological Asymmetric Time.

Thanks Matti for your indulgences in the comments of wide and distant yet relevant topics.

The PeSla (posting before reading comments here today)

L. Edgar Otto said...

Ulla and all:

Through a blog I follow this link as a possible joint discussion. said...

To Pesla: I looked at the link. The page makes quite clear both the progress and big mistakes made while attempting to understand consciousness.

The article does not define precisely whether consciousness is just awareness or assumed to involve cognitive aspect and symbolic thinking, even language, and whether it involves self model. It is also mentioned that it is possible to be awake but not aware? What is meant with this. Sleep walkers? Hypnotized subjects?

Basic mistakes of emerging view to my opinion:

a) It is regarded as self evident that brain is the seat of consciousness and that consciousness is just particular brain function. Bringing in magnetic body brings in dramatically new insights and allows to understand weird aspects of consciousness - say being awake but not aware.

To my view sensory receptors are the seats of basic qualia but I would not go to stake for it. One prediction is feedback from brain to sensory organs as a basic process in building symbolic representations of sensory input: this allows to understand REM during dreaming. The identification of brain as symbol building machine rather than seat of all aspects of conscious experience looks most natural view in TGD framework.

b) The observation that frontal lobes are very important would to my opinion reflect only the fact that these regions and corresponding parts of magnetic body can be assigned largest values of h bar and longest time scales.

c) It has been learned that anesthesia destroys coherence. Or translating to hbar hierarchy: larger hbars assignable to larger brain regions cease to contribute. This is important result if true but it is still quite possible that the neuronal membrane mechanism is the increase of membrane potential making the generation of nerve pulses less plausible. Again criticizable assumption: are we unconscious during dreamless sleep? Could it be that we do not only remember?

d) It is good that the experience of volition is now accepted as something worth of study. Article talks about no volition but open decisions between different action. To me this sounds absolute non-sense. Maybe it is politically correct way to say that now one amymore believes free will to be an illusion.

To me this is volition albeit passive and would correspond to the state function reduction.
If U process and volition are actually dual (reduction for states with given arrow of time is U process for states with different arrow of time) then all volition would be this kind of choice with one important exception. The situation in presence of negentropic entanglement for which state function reduction does not occur does not fit to this picture! It is not mere passive choice.

Hamed said...

Dear Matti,
I read at :
“I consider the ultimate words of Einstein on this matter to be the fifth appendix, added in 1952, to the fifteenth edition of his book "Relativity: The Special and the General Theory.”:
(Minkowski space) judged from the standpoint of the general theory of relativity, is not a space without field, but a special case of the g_ik field, for which --- for the coordinate system used, which in itself has no objective significance --- the functions g_ik have values that do not depend on the co-ordinates. There is no such thing as an empty space, i.e., a space without field. Space-time does not claim existence on its own, but only as a structural quality of the field"
This clearly shows Einstein's view that space is not endowed with any physical characteristics, space-time has no independent existence, and the mathematical constructs of the manifold are abstractions from the gravitational field.”
What is viewpoint of TGD in the subject? Can one interpreted TGD(light side of it ;-)) as that only spinor fields exist and metric field is abstraction from spinor fields and so space-time is abstraction from metric field?
A program of Einstein was that unifying Gravitation with other Fields. Can TGD unify all the Fields in to the consequences of Kahler action?

Hamed said...

Continue of my last comment:
Oh! I confused between WCW spinors and spinor fields in last sentences. In TGD Kahler action leads to metric structure and its "square root" is WCW spinor structure.
I should ask my question obviously:

-which structure is fundamental in TGD and others are derived from it as abstractions? said...

Dear Hamed,

thank you for good questions again. In answer first to the questions of the first comment.

1) About the notion of field.

I would *not* say that space-time is abstraction from fields. Space-times surfaces with induced metric are fundamental objects. There are no primary classical gauge or gravitional fields: these reduce to induced spinor connection and projections of CP_2 Killing vector fields (gluons) and induced metric. Keeping in tradition one could call the deviation of the induced metric from flat metric gravitational field, etc... but the dynamics of fields is replaced with the dynamics of 3-surfaces.

*Gauge bosons and gravitons emerge in TGD Universe: they consist of fermion antifermion pairs with fermion and antifermion at opposite throats of the wormhole contact. The TGD counterparts for quanta of fields have deformations of CP_2 type vacuum extremals as space-time correlates and matter becomes space-time topology.

*The emergence of bosons does not change the fact that 3-surfaces and corresponding space-time sheets are fundamental objects - together with induced spinor field. For instance, color corresponds to color partial waves in CP_2 and therefore to purely bosonic degrees of freedom in WCW.

*There are however induced spinor fields which are second quantized and free. They are needed to define WCW gamma matrices as linear combinations of fermionic oscillator operators. The conjecture is that Dirac determinant defines the exponent of Kaehler action for preferred extremals so that fermionic sector would define the WCW metric.

*WCW spinor fields are counterparts for the Fock states for fermions and bosons. WCW spinor fields are however purely *classical* in the sense that no second quantization is performed for them. Quantization without quantization. Certainly they are the fundamental objects together with WCW.

2) About Unification.

In TGD framework the unification means geometrization of all fields at classical level and at quantum level a reduction of quantum physics to the spinor geometry of WCW. At classical level one can geometrize electroweak, color and gravitational fields and many-sheeted space-time allows to circumvent the basic objection against expressibility in terms of 4 imbedding space coordinates only. At quantum level one can find representations for the quanta of various fields and explain standard model symmetries. Only the detailed construction of the Feynman diagrammatics can tell whether the scattering amplitudes are correct, whether gauge couplings are predicted correctly, etc... These are horrible constraints but symmetries are extremely powerful and Nature loves symmetry.

Kaehler action would define the fundamental dynamics for space-time surfaces and also the modified Dirac equation is derived from it by replacing ordinary gamma matrices by modified ones defined in terms of canonical momentum currents. This is required by supersymmetry and internal consistency for Dirac action. said...

Dear Hamed,

your question was about what structure is fundamental in TGD and about what is fundamental and what is abstraction or derivation.

a) Physics as infinite-D Kahler geometry and physics as generalized number theory would be fundamental principles and fix the fundamental structures: space-time surfaces (partonic 2-surfaces, space-like and light-like 3-surfaces), CDs, Imbedding space, WCW, WCW spinor fields.

b) WCW Kahler geometry with spinor structure is fundamental since it gives all of physics. It is however defined in terms of space-time geometry and induced spinors at space-time surfaces so one encounters hen-or-egg question. Identification of Kahler function as Kaeler action for preferred extremal. Zero energy ontology and CDs have also become stable part of it. What makes space-time surface a preferred extremal: TGD as almost topological QFT implying reduction of Kahler action to surface term or (possibly equivalently) space-time surface as quaternionic surface?

c) Number theoretic vision could be also argued to be a fundamental building brick and basic quantitative predictions (p-adic mass calculations) rely on it.

*The conjecture is that the infinite-D symmetries guaranteing the existence of WCW metric select M^4xCP_2 because it allows number theoretical interpretation.

*There is also conjecture that the preferred extremals of Kaehler action could have number theoretic interpretation as quaternionic surfaces in octonionic imbedding space (the precise meaning of this statement is not quite obvious).

*I hope that hierarchy of Planck constants indeed follows from the vacuum degeneracy of Kaehler action analogous to gauge degeneracy but not a gauge symmetry. It has become clear that the realization of this hierarchy in terms of singular coverings of imbedding space has a deep number theoretical interpretation (I am still struggling with quantum adeles- avoid them until I get the chapter finished!);-)

*p-Adicity is fundamental and needed to describe cognition but it would follow from number theoreticaly universality when real numbers are replaced by adeles.

You see that TGD is only a vision based on the requirement of internal consistency. Not anything carved in stone.

Hamed said...

Thank you very much Matti, answers were just enough for me :)

L. Edgar Otto said...

Ahh Matti,

Interesting commentary on the issues of the nature of consciousness (and from my first impressions and perspective we are in agreement as to what the issues are).

I get the thought that time if an arrow read two ways, the one way we look at them , the direction of recalling a memory, is what you mean by negentropy. But as in my post today the direction can have many paths one way and a simple path the other way as a "reduction into a state"

I also think the lack of sense of self is not necessarily related to certain mental states like schizo. But the philosophy may have appeal to those states of mind.

By what was asked as issues in this article I would think we are very far away from any method including the self referential one of a subjective stance.

Coherence and subregions are interesting, magnetic body I understand the field concept but not the explicit meaning- a guage field or some other plane... maybe consciousness have many sheets in one abstract time direction but converge into the other. In any case I have approached this from a binary decision of two choices but in thinking on this things are certainly much more complicated than even my exceptional hard to read last post strives to explain.

Thus in many more looping ways the mental process of decision certainly permits free will and determinism in the volition, and even in the intention- consciousness as a reflection maybe?

Wait! The soul is in the liver, or is it in the heart? if we are to take the experience of ancient men, and if plants think why not the stones, the earth herself? Then again the little man mapped inside our brain must in a sense contain a liver or a heart- hmmm would it contain a brain?

I imagine there is false hope in the breakthroughs of neuroscience that that field solves anything deeply so soon. Can we register an see a "magnetic body?"

I am sorry I just read the article and I thought it would contain more content than it did.

The PeSla

◘Fractality◘ said...


Earth's magnetic field (magnetosphere?) is being affected by a large solar storm.

Effects on consciousness? said...

To Fractality:

Yes. I believe that effects would be via the magnetic body. Maybe someday the realityof magnetic body could be demonstrated by inducing predictable effects on conscious experience from another side of globe;-).

The effects of solar storms on consciousness are known. I remember from visit to Sweden that I had horrible head ache. I can imagine one and thousand reasons but someone suggested that perhaps the reason was solar storm. Maybe!

◘Fractality◘ said...


On the topic of demonstrating the reality of magnetic body - here is a mystical approach. I firmly believe one of the keys to understanding consciousness comes from responsible use of molecules.

Entheogens (Ayahuasca, Peyote, Psilocybin, Salvinorin A) and other substances induce a "shared experience/quantum entanglement" between the magnetic body of the plant (or magnetic body of the molecule? Say DMT in Ayahuasca?) and the magnetic body of the human. Plant molecule would literally experience magnetic body of human! Certainly, it can't just be human who experiences?

This could help to explain the "sensed presence" during these experiences.

Regards. said...

In principle the existence of magnetic body can be tested. Peter Gariaev and his group might have even been photographed the dark matter at magnetic body of DNA sample: ! said...

To Pesla:

I think that the self referentiality of consciousness is the real "hard problem". Maybe this requires completely new mathematics. I have been just writing and rewriting chapter about quantum adeles where I end up to propose what this new mathematics might be. The latest draft is here:

The view which emerged after several wrong tracks and still contains a lot of errors is roughly following.

a) The idea is to start from arithemetics : + and x for natural numbers and generalize it .

*The key observation is that + and x have direct sum and tensor product for Hilbert spaces as complete analogs.

*Replace natural number n with n-D Hilbert space at first abstraction step. n+m and nxm go to direct sum and tensor product of Hilbert spaces. You calculate with Hilbert spaces rather than numbers. This induces calculation for Hilbert space states and sum and product are like 3-particle vertices.

*At second step construct integers (also negative) as pairs of Hilbert spaces (m,n) identifying (m+r,n+r) and (m,n). This gives what might be called negative dimensional Hilbert spaces! Then take these pairs and define rationals as Hilbert space pairs (m,n) of this kind with (m,n) equivalent to (km,kn). This gives rise to what might be called m/n-dimensional Hilbert spaces!

*At third step construct Hilbert space variants of algebraic extensions of rationals. Hilbert space with dimension sqrt(2) say: this is a really nice trick. After that p-adic number fields and even reals: one can indeed understand even what pi-dimensional Hilbert space could be!

*Do the same for complex numbers, quaternions, and octonions, imbedding space M^4xCP_2, etc..

b) The second key observation is that one can do all this again but at new level. Replace the numbers defining vectors of the Hilbert spaces (number sequences) assigned to numbers with Hilbert spaces! Continue ad infinitum by replacing points with Hilbert spaces again and again.

You get sequence of abstractions, which would be analogous to a hierarchy of n:th order logics. At lowest levels would be just predicate calculus: statements like 4=2^2. At second level abstractions like y=x^2. At next level collections of algebraic equations, etc....

c) This construction is structurally very similar ro - if not equivalent with - the construction of infinite primes which corresponds to repeated second quantization in quantum physics. There is also a close relationship to - maybe equivalence with - what I have called algebraic holography or number theoretic Brahman=Atman identity. Numbers have infinitely complex anatomy not visible for physicist but necessary for understanding the self referentiality of consciousness and allowing mathematical objects to be holograms coding for mathematics. Mathematical objects would be DNA of mathematics!

d) I forgot to mention that one can assign to direct sum and tensor product their co-operations and sequences of mathematical operations are very much like generalized Feynman diagrams. Co-product for instance would assign to integer m all its factorization to a product of two integers with some amplitudes each: this would define the 3-particle vertices.

The proposal is that quantum TGD is indeed quantum arithmetics! Feynman diagrams corresponds to a formula! One implication is that all generalized Feynman diagrams would reduce to a canonical form without loops and incoming/outgoing legs could be permuted. This is a generalization of old fashioned string model duality symmetry that I proposed years ago but gave up as too "romantic" and idea.

◘Fractality◘ said...


I've perused that book regarding your model for hologram-generating properties of DNA.

Skeptics stop reading here ;)

The pictures of the hologrammic DNA remind me of "The Scole Experiment"

At the very least, you might find the Scole Experiment to be something worth theorizing within TGD context labeled under "TGD and Fringe Physics" ;)

Regards. said...

The Scole experiment looks very interesting. I hope I could steal some time somewhere to look it at more detail;-).

I forgot to mention the work of Persinger about which I wrote some time ago: the experience of meeting God in "god helmet" experiments it could be interpret in terms of extension of magnetic body when new "onion layer" appears in the magnetic body. See

Ulla said...

The fi ndings support a new approach to quantum biological systems. They are not just under the influence of environmental decoherence due to random noise but also driven by the coherent waves of the incoming photons.
The photons are absorbed by one of the chromophores which can be interpreted as a measurement process selecting one of the chromophores randomly. Then the system is set into an initial state which is concentrated on the selected chromophore. The purity of the system becomes P = 1 as this is a pure state and the partially decoherent evolution starts again decreasing the purity in time. The system can hover in the "Poised Realm"[19] between clean quantum and incoherent classical worlds. By tuning the timings of re-coherence events and the coherence time during decoherence via tuning the system
on the chaos-regularity axis can be kept in high level of purity.

Quite remarcable? This sets the time at center. There are many time 'windows', not only 80 ms (sensory measurement in TGD?). I read about 'consciousness creation' at a little over 4 mS, intelligence is measured in time reaction oscillations/synchronation/resonance, a whole serie of frequencies that creates cognition, a little like 'windows' for cyclotrone frequencies in meridians, etc. I must look more at this. Dissipation-link to time?

And from a blog:
When a systems changes from being merely quantum to being quantum chaotic, it passes through a kind of phase transition. The new thinking focuses on this transition.

Physicists have known for many years that when a system is finely balanced between two phases, all kinds of strange behaviour can occur. For example, water changes from a gas to a liquid to a solid at certain temperatures and pressures. These states all have well defined properties.

However, there is a certain temperature and pressure at which all three states of water can co-exist. At this so-called critical transition, the distinction between gas, liquid and solid essentially disappears.

Kauffman and co say a similar kind of critical transition occurs as quantum systems switch to a chaotic regime. Here the distinction between chaotic behaviour and ordinary quantum behaviour disappears. And in these conditions, quantum coherence suddenly changes from the fragile, blink-and-you-miss-it regime to a much more robust long-lived phenomenon.

It is in this state, say Kauffman and co, that the observed processes of quantum biology must take place. They even demonstrate this by simulating the improved coherence of the light harvesting complexes involved in photosynthesis. "It is very likely that biological systems use this mechanism," they say.

The critical transition that Kauffman and co talk about is also known as the the metal-to-insulator transition, which allows the transport of quantum information and energy. If that can be made to work at room temperature, as Kauffman and co suggest, all kinds of new quantum devices may be possible.

"The results may open up new possibilities to design low loss energy and information transport systems,"

Ulla said... from EPR before EPR: a 1930 Einstein-Bohr thought experiment revisited,
(the lightlike cone?)'

and from
Stefano Finazzi, et al. “Cosmological Constant: A Lesson from Bose-Einstein Condensates.” PRL 108, 071101 (2012). DOI: 10.1103/PhysRevLett.108.071101