Tuesday, March 09, 2010

EEG synchrony and negentropic entanglement

In the discussion related to the previous posting someone turned my attention to 40 Hz synchrony. If one accepts the vision about life as something in the intersection of real and p-adic worlds 40 Hz EEG synchrony can be interpreted as a correlate for the generation of negentropic entanglement between cortical neurons. Before proposing this interpretation let us first describe the experimental findings of a finnish neuroscientist Antti Revonsuo (see his article Binding and the Phenomenal Unity of Consciousness).


The interpretation for 40 Hz EEG frequency inspired by the binding hypothesis is as a synchronizing frequency necessary for the generation of unified percepts. This hypothesis has been studied using auto-stereograms. There was no detectable difference in the power spectrum at 36-44 Hz range in the situation when auto-stereogram was experienced as a set of random dots as compared to the situation when it was perceived as a coherent, symmetrical gestalt. The situation was same also in 8-13 Hz and 13-20 Hz beta bands.

On the other hand, when the conscious percept was transformed from a random set of points to a coherent gestalt, there was a detectable increase in 40 Hz power in the occipital and right posterior sites for EEG electrodes in a time window 300-500 ms before the unified percept was reported. There could be also some time lapse between the unified percept and the report about it but probably this cannot explain the entire lapse. No increase of power in beta bands was detected: this might be due to the fact that the widths of the measured bands are much wider than the widths ofthe narrow sub-bands reported masked by other EEG activity according to Nunez (Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 23, 2000). Note that in the model for a hierarchy of EEGs based on dark matter hierarchy beta band correspond to data communicated to the magnetic body (see this).

That the change in activity is associated with the emergence of a new percept suggests that the temporary increase of the EEG power could be assigned to the communications of the forming percept to the magnetic body.

Interpretation in terms of a generation of a negentropic entanglement

A fresh view about what really happens during 40 Hz synchrony came with the realization that negentropic entanglement is possible in the intersection of real and p-adic worlds. The generation of negentropic entanglement between two subselves means that the corresponding mental images are fused (see see this and this). The process is experienced by the fusing subselves as an expansion of consciousness whereas consciousness is lost when when bound state entanglement is generated. Also the meditative states begin with enchanged 40 Hz activity and interpretation would be same. Quite generally, the generation of negentropically entangled neuron groups could be a correlate for the emergence of a new idea or a new holistic pattern emerging from a chaos. Synchronous firing would be a natural correlate for the synergic state resulting in this manner. The paradoxical looking reduction of the oxiditative metabolism associated with 40 Hz firing could be seen as a signature of reduced dissipation when dissipating ensemble of neurons forms a single quantum coherent system.

What could then be the interpretation of the 300-500 ms time scale and synchronous firing in TGD framework?

  1. If one assumes that only brain is involved, one must answer whether the new percept emerges after such a long time period. One would naively expect that negentropic entanglement immediately gives rise to the percept. Negentropic entanglement however means that a quantum superposition of several alternative percepts is involved. In the beginning the new percept is present with only small probability so that one would only know that the moment of heureka is quite near (this is indeed the experience that one has) and in the final situation it dominates but not completely since it requires conscious effort to preserve the percept.

  2. Also magnetic body should be involved in TGD framework. The natural question is "Why this synchronous neuronal firing?". The natural answer would be that it allows to communicate the new percept as a consequence of a generation of negentropic entanglement to the magnetic body. The frequency scale of 40 Hz corresponds to a time scale of 25 milliseconds and corresponds to a length scale involved is about .75× 107 m, a good candidate for the size of the part of the magnetic body involved. This time scale is much shorter than 300-500 seconds. If the layer of the magnetic body in question corresponds to the fundamental 100 millisecond time scale assignable to electron as is natural in case of sensory percepts, the time lapse could be essentially due to the communication. If one takes the time scale literally the value of Planck constant which is about 3 to 5 larger than its standard value would suggest itself. Of course, the development of the percept from a fuzzy inkling to the final heureka could involve several communication loops between brain and magnetic body so that the interpretation as a lapse due the slowness of communications need not be inconsistent with the first interpretation.

  3. The time scale 300-500 ms could characterize the duration of negentropic entanglement but this is not necessarily the case since negentropic entanglement would be un-necessary after the percept has been represented symbolically so that one knows what is lurking behind the chaos.
The reported lower oxidative metabolism during the negentropic entanglement could be either due to the reduced dissipation due to the absence of dissipating neuronal selves or due the fact that magnetic body provides in this kind of situation the metabolic energy.


At 2:07 AM, Blogger donkerheid said...


I'm just telling that the links do not work.

This brought to my mind something else, that living matter is constantly in inequilibrium; might the intersection of real and p-adic worlds (or something else) offer some explanation for this?

How about your PC, by the way?

At 3:24 AM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

Thank you! A really important piece of information. Every link was wrong: the links to my own page were for some mysterious reason to the old page. Almost a miracle.

Living matter can be said to be in flow equilibrium under external energy feed. Think of a water pot which is heated and forms increasingly complex flow patterns as the heating gets stronger. The new element is possibility of the energy feed assignable to negentropic entanglement and failure of second law in the time scale of CD (about which one has octave hierarchy plus dark matter variants with various values of hbar).

This intersection is more like a critical system. Now one has also quantum criticality. This makes the system highly sensitive to the changes of environment and makes possible to sense and survive.

My PC is now in a healthy condition. It is wonderful to be able to work again.

At 9:11 AM, Blogger donkerheid said...

Mae-Wan Ho also told about this flow equilibrium.

gosh it is complicated :).

You told that cognition should be present already at the elementary particle level. So could evolution be to some extent the outcome of cognition, problem solving? To generate coördinated changes in order to overcome a specific problem the system is faced with? I think irreducible complexity really is a serious problem, this might help to resolve it.

At 10:42 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

As you know we talk of the Life as an open entropic system in ecology, with the energy feed from the sun (in photosynthesis as bound energy or negentropy) and energy loss in the form of heat (entropy). It is the same explanation almost as the boiling pot of water. I think it would be a reasonable explanation to think that this heat loss must be minimized, and then the maximation of negentropy in the form of life would be evident. Populations express quantum criticality in the form of Gauss curves, and some problem solving surely belongs here. Correlations may be detected by aid of dark matter then (sensory inputs)?

Today I have been filled by excitement over this. I have several comments, and the last one on earlier posting belongs here, but my comment and Mattis post were fired synchroniously and met in the air :) I think I have solved a big piece of this puzzle :)

At 11:04 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

First, this must be true. But I shall begin with the problem. The time window of 300-500 msec. Is it a coincidence it is of about the same size as for Libet?

When you talk of the impact of the magnetic body you talk of 'the fundamental 100 second time scale assignable to electon'. I think it must be 100 msec.

My question is why would time be needed for communication with the magnetic body? Communication in magnetic systems happens instantly, as seen in the movements of the electron. I think point 2. can't be true. Also for dark systems there are a different time concept of 'eternity'.

And not the other either :) Instead I propose a fourth point.

4. The generation of negentropic entanglement mean a fusion of images. Fusion means that two images become one, and the binding energy of the other is free then. It is the 'order for free' or said in other terms 'energy for free'. Stuart Kauffman also told of 'order for free'.

In the same way with consciousness. Two images superpositioned = two different consciousness 'experiences', and when they fuse the consciousness level of course grows. This is the same as when we speak of 'to know more than everything' in quantum computation, and perhaps the same when we contact dark matter in the interception (window). We project our self into that (as magnetic body?) and get an superposition.

Sounds great in my ears:)

At 11:12 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

Then it is this subjective time perception as quantum jumps. It dumped on my head when I read this sentence.

"A fresh view about what really happens during 40 Hz synchrony came with the realization that negentropic entanglement is possible in the intersection of real and p-adic worlds."


This is it! Our subjective time. It is pecieved as quantum jumps frequency. A slower rate of jumps = few jump, few intersections, and a slow time. And the opposite for a fast frequency.

Remember, once I supposed you that this 40 Hz was our inner clock :) But I didn't see this then.

The arrow of time is also entropic.

At 11:58 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

The third 'big news' :)

Look at the 3-D picture of matter and antimatter in this link.


When I look at it I see matter and dark matter. Too little antimatter has been seen yet, but this picture hints at an assymmetry.

Life follows the same line too, as 'islands of stability'. p-adic for dark matter and real for ordinary matter. (But it must be in 90 degrees angle? = a chakragate). What happen if we say psychology and fysiology? A psychological world as p-adics, and a fysiological world as reals. Nobody has yet been able to explain 'what is psychology'.

The fusion of images can give enormous mounts of energy (freed as Gibbs energy?) A new 'heureka' gives a 'kick'. At least I want to jump or run of happiness. In the video Murphy also told of "going up of the roof and shout out loud" of joy, or "fight the lions". Supernormal strength seen in accidents may be explained in this way?

Is this the emotion only? If emotions are dark expressions in form of psychology ( I know this has been proposed earlier)? Then emotions have a strong component of darkness. Maybe it is the insight that gives the joy?

Take love. It feels like an atomic bomb. Try to suppress it! It can't be done. It will explode you.

I borrow this beautiful citation from anon.

"As long as we are here experiencing singularity this way, we are here only because we Really Do Like each others presence, reflect each other as singularity. Love is willfull blindness of not being all-knowing - so we could surprise ourselves... as singularities.

Thank you for your company. We wouldn't have it any other way."

This enlightment is cool. It gives you insights :) And it feels good.

I think I was very genious now :)

The same jump gives fysical entanglement in a network, time, energy and emotions in psychology, also qualias as cognitions.

I think iron is our quantum antenna, but this is only a guess and need more work.

Bon Apetit :)

At 12:13 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

Oh,I almost forgot.

About that subjective time something more.

Sometimes we experience times as 'standing still' or 'flow'. Time just disappears. This happens in chock for the first. Time may also go in 'slow motion'. Yet we can have a very fast transmission of cognitions in these moments. Subjective time may also go to 'the dark side'?

Also in flow. Very fast quantum jumps, but no perception of time at all. Suddenly your husband stay there and say angry 'Where is the dinner?' Oops. Again!

At 3:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

From the link, re 40:

n * 3 + 1

1D: 1
2D: 1 * 3 + 1 = 4
3D: 4 * 3 + 1 = 13
4D: 13 * 3 + 1 = 40

3³ + 13 = 40

In other words, if one centers oneself inside a line, a plane and a cube with one dot in the center and minimum number of other dots with arms stretched "chirally" on both sides (forming a line), how many body movements to touch all the other dots of the form?

Simple formula (with a three in it, plus one ;)). So when continued to 4D the magical herz number appears with nice cube symmetries. What's the 4D form in question BTW? A Platonic Tesseract? (I really do suck at math :D).

Also the two reproductive sexes have about 2^3*5 fingers and TOEs together. That must be highly significant... as Protagoras said, man is the measure of everything. ;D

At 8:00 PM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

Thank you for Ulla for a correction: 100 ms rather than 100 s (temporal size of electron's causal diamond).

Classical communications of sensory and other data to magnetic body would take place using EEG and its scaled variants (probably existing in TGD Universe) and requires time.

Anonymous: the number series 1,4,13,40 is interesting. 40 in 40 Hz has special meaning only if 1 Hz frequency is somehow very special. 10 Hz is as frequency associated with electron but 1 Hz?

DNA cyclotron frequencies are near 1 Hz in magnetic field of .2 Gauss and the slight differences of these frequencies could serve as a signature for DNA sequences but could not distinguish between sequences with different order of nucleotides. They however depend on the strength of magnetic field.

At 8:10 PM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

Ulla says that 300-500 second time scale is same as for Libet. Libet found that our sensory data has age of a fraction of second. This would fit with the interpretation that it takes time to communicate the percept to the layer of magnetic body representing "sensory me" or to more complex communication loop to achieve this.

I like very much about the idea that the new percept becomes gradually conscious as its probability in the negentropic superposition gradually grows. How long this takes is a totally different question. If this time is 25 ms (corresponding to 40 Hz) then the communication takes most of the time. How long it takes for a new visual pattern to develop from the first hunch to the full pattern might be possible to measure.

At 11:46 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

To anon.
I have too thought of why we,and vertebrates in general have a bodyplane built on 2*5,with 5 toes and fingers. Sum = 10, if it means something. This is too the reflexological zonal lines in our body that gives us the 'flow of chi'. Chinese systems have added two central lines in the middle.

In reflexology it fits nicely with the elements, the Platonic solides.

In the bible the number 40 is also a magic one. Also for the Septirot etc.

I try to study Yin and Yang, and I have searched in fact for a 1 Hz signal as the basement for it. Josephson current is the lowest, so I guess 1 Hz lies exactly or very near the interception of p-adic and reals.

Maybe it would be the DNA itself? Could those signals then, extremely long, be diurnal signal, or some kind of intercommunicative signal? Something with water is highly priority object.

Very cold reception for my beautiful ideas :)

The time concept must be thought over again, I came to it this morning. Not so big error. It has with the emotional molecular production to do. Libet is another thing worth to study more.


At 12:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Acording to this source (http://www.formulaformiracles.net/brain-waves.html) 40, 13, (7) and 4are critical hz points, 40-13 waking consciousness, 13-7 relaxed, meditation, 7-4 REM, lucid dreaming, deep meditation, below 4 dreamless sleep, access to unconsciouss and collective consciousness, loss of body awereness.

So these critical points seem correspond to shifts between deepening stages of trance. What's the relation between stages of trance and experiencing dimensionality? 40+ gamma waves would correspond to experiencing higher dimensions, if there's any such relation.

1hz * 86400 (2^7 * 3^3 * 5^2) is of course Earth's rotation around its axel. BTW 86399 is prime. Second was redefined as unrelated to Earth day because it is "slowing". Clock time, which is curiously both geometric and psychological time - some people are able to develop very accurate psychological sense of clock time - Kant being a well known example. Maybe clock time would be best defined as technological and technocratic time of Western culture, out of sync with natural rythms.

Harmony of spheres and octaves are another hint for this puzzle: http://www.starseedmusic.net/harmony.html

"In 1939 in England on the 2nd chamber tone conference this tone was redefined as an A vibrating at 440 Hz. It is not known on which base this was defined, certainly it has no relation to anything found in nature. This is maybe the reason why the western world is literally out of tune with nature.

Finally, in combining modern astronomical data and the octave law, we have a tool to tune our instruments in tune or resonance (German: Einklang) with nature. So, a G at 194.18 Hz the tone of the day, which is the tone of the year, the time the Earth needs to circle the Sun. The year has exactly 365.24199 days. The calculation of 1/(365.24199 x 86400) = 0.000000031689 Hz. This is, in its 32nd octave, the tone C# at 136.10 Hz. As Cousto found out on his journeys to India, the sitar masters tune their instruments exactly or close to a C# 136.1 Hz. And they didn't use a Korg tuner or did mathematical acrobatics, but were actually in tune with the universe. This is the higher meaning of tuning an instrument: to be attuned with the nature of reality."

At 6:32 PM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

To anonymous about eeg bands. I have pondered the question whether we as magnetic bodies are actually conscious during sleep but do not remember it.

It would be natural to assume that synchronous firing quite generally is correlate for the formation of memories by negentropic entanglement of mental images and remembered by communicating with the geometric past using same frequencies. The synchronous firing would correspond to signal to the geometric future!

Hippocampal theta which extends above 10 Hz (the terminology or neurosciensts is misleading - to put it mildly) would correspond to memories formed during wake-up periods.

Synchronous theta and delta waves below 5 Hz would correspond to memories which are formed and remembered only during sleep. The sensations during wake-up and falling asleep could give some idea about the character of this consciousness. The mental image has a definite meaning and then it becomes completely nonsensical: this is what happens during wake-up period typically.

The octaves appear in music and this is to me one piece of support for zero energy ontology implying the preferred character of octaves and p-adic length scale hypothesis.

At 11:53 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

I think it is self evident we are conscious when we sleep, but we are not aware.

The unconscious part is when we are in coma, and even then are reports that some patients may be actually very conscious, but without possibility to express themselves. I shall see if I find the link.

I would not say trance is unconsciousness at all. And the 'experiences of dimensions' I don't understand. I would say experience as perception in 40Hz is just work, like thinking is work. Although the entanglement may have a dark aspect. Usually in that stage you are very far from experiencing the dark dimensions. They are experienced in the low frequencies.

These EEG values are not strict, they move within its values. But the function is in intervals.

There are also a very high EEG pulse for hippocampus among others. Maybe it has something with memory to do too. It is in class 600 Hz. Brainwaves are complex.

I have wondered when the Golden Mean is so obvious in harmony and nature, why would it not be a part of the p-adic scale too. There must be a link. Then there is also a link to the Platonic solides.

I'm very fond of these pictures of the harmony in our planets orbits. Fascinating. Pythagoras could hear them singing acc. to the sage. What amazing that a living thing actually can sense that. Living sensors are so very sensible, even one single electron or even subparticular things can be sensed.


At 4:47 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

One beginning of the modelling :)


I am not so talent as You, Matti. But this is really interesting.Thanks for the tread. Also thanks to Mark Mc Williams.

At 8:34 PM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

Your article was very interesting. I had not realized that Persinger was the teacher of this neuroscientist. By the way, a few years ago Persinger lost funding. Academic world treats its best members in incredibly stupid manner.

At 12:52 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

WOW, the first positive comment for a long while :) Thanks.

It is the economy and politics. Persinger said it himself. This is very useful for the politicians and the military. The one that can control the human mind has the power over them. I guess the demanded something from him that he could not give them. It is the usual way. Corruption. Not many can withstand it. Maybe his research would reveal the HAARP goal?

Like Becker said when he lost his funding. "It was only because his research showed the electromagnetism could be dangerous." He linked it to Alzheimers, and more and more facts come that support his ideas. But he is dead now.

But there are some, sometimes. Like Persinger. And you.

Look at the NPR blog, http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2010/03/the_iself_and_our_symbolic_spe.html?ft=1&f=114424647

"I've been struck by how little attention is given to a second capacity of human brains that's also likely unique, namely, the ability to rapidly and seamlessly learn and utilize symbolic languages when exposed to them at an early age."

It is our school system that destroys this capacity. Too much left brain thinking :) Maybe the computers will make the balance better.

At 12:59 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

Here is a better example. Roger Penrose, your hero :)

He is 90 years old, still writing, he aims to do several books yet. He just grin at the qritics. But his money for living is sure.

Ed Witten tries to get a 4-D Universe from the 11-D in M-theory, by criticality :) Wonder what Lubos think about that :)


At 3:26 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

Todd Murphy says: Magnetic signals are propagated with much greater speeds than those of action potentials moving through neurons. Contemporary physics requires that magnetic signals be propagated at a significant fraction of the velocity of light, so that the entire brain could be exposed to a neuromagnetic signal in vanishingly small amounts of time.

I had something about that erlier. The delay cannot be magnetic?


At 10:58 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

This one I must add, although you surely becomes tired on me :) But I think you would like it too. Also to anonymous. You are surely just as fascinated of these things :)


METHOD FOR THE REGULATION OF PROTEIN BIOSYNTHESIS a method for determining the musical notes associated with an amino acid sequence, the musical periods of the sequence, the lengths of the notes, and the tone quality of the notes through the retroaction of the whole set of amino acids and using that information to regulate the biosynthesis of the protein.

the melody that will act to stimulate or inhibit its synthesis inside an organism, wherefrom one can in addition delimit its biological functions. Patient 1999.

[0057] The first and seventh notes of each period fostered, respectively, adenine and thymine in third position; whereas, the third and eighth notes fostered in the same way cytosine and guanine. This confirmed the above division for the period and the relative lengths of notes. In other words, the seventh and eighth notes had lengths that were respectively twice and four times the first. This also showed that in an AT-rich environment strong beats were on the first and seventh notes, and therefore the measure bars were on the first. However, in a CG-rich environment the musical sequence started on an anacrouse (strong beat on the third and eighth notes, measure bar on the third).

[0058] The conclusion was that the protein had distinct metabolic roles, depending on its environment.

My comment: This C-G I have thought would be special. A-T is often in telomer. The start and stop signal also ought to be special.

See also http://www.earthpulse.com/src/subcategory.asp?catid=2&subcatid=6

and http://biogenesislab.blogspot.com/2008/07/joel-sternheimer-earthpulse-press.html

"[0003] Demonstration of the musical properties of elementary particles suggests an important role for the scale at which the phenomena happen. (J. Sternheimer, C. R. Acad. Sc. Paris 297, 829, 1983). For example, it is known that the physical existence of quantum waves associated to particles propagate themselves not only in space-time, but also in that scale dimension, thus linking together successive levels of the organization of matter. (J. Sternheimer, Colloque International "Louis de Broglie, Physician et Penseur", Ancienne Ecole Polytechnique, Paris, Nov. 5-6, 1987). These waves allow an action of one scale onto the other, between phenomena that are similar enough to constitute, in a mathematically well-defined sense, harmonics of a common fundamental tone. (See J. Sternheimer, Ondes d'e'chelle [scaling waves], I. Partie Physique; II. Partie Biologique. Filed at Academie des Sciences (Paris) 1992 under seal no. 17064)."

Try some music :)

I worked in several years with research on tomatoes, and there was quite seriously a proposal we would play Vivaldi for the tomatoes :) It was when they talked of music to the cows.

Sorry for the long excerpt, but this was really a fascinating story. I enjoy these things.

At 12:41 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

My monologue continue...

A continuation on the modelling.


This looks good :)


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