Monday, November 22, 2010

Concentric circles in WMAP and Penrose's vision about pre Big-Bang

Phil Gibbs told in Vixra log about the new paper by Penrose and Gurzadyan entitled Concentric circles in WMAP data may provide evidence of violent pre-Big-Bang activity. I do not really understood how the circles of enhanced coherence for temperature fluctuations could follow from Penrose's theory. Probably so because I do not even understand Penrose's theory;-). Ulla asked in Vixra log about the possibility that they could have Big-Bang origin. One can also ask whether they could have post Big-Bang origin. The following is the typo free version of my comment in Vixra log with some little additions.

If one allows more general 1-D curves as curves of coherence one can perhaps consider something like this.

  1. These curves should correspond to intersections of 2-D surfaces at which the inhomogenities of mass density causing the temperature fluctuations tend to be concentrated. There would be enhanced coherence along these surfaces if mass density at these surfaces is reasonably constant.

  2. The intersections of these 2-D surfaces with the sphere from which the radiation comes from for a given red-shift would define 1-D circles of exceptional coherence. Concentric circles of coherence look something too specific.

  3. More concretely, what comes in mind at the level of experimental facts are the large voids of scale 108 light years having galaxies at their boundaries. If one believes in fractal universe these kind of honeycomb like structures should appear in a hierarchy of discrete length scales..

One can continue even further to the murky depths of TGD.

  1. Suppose that one believes that the flatness of 3-space is not due to inflation but due to a period of quantum criticality (dark matter energy as phases with gigantic value of Planck constant). Criticality is characterized by long range fluctuations and fractality. Therefore one indeed expects a fractal honeycomb manifesting itself as a hierarchy of coherence circles in WMAP.

  2. Diving still deeper and taking seriously p-adic length scale hypothesis, zero energy ontology, and causal diamonds, one would end up with the possibility that the fractal honeycomb with preferred size scales of cells coming as half octaves or powers of two or subset of them. This fractal structure would expand in various scales by discrete jumps involving perhaps the increase of gravitational hbar as the size of CD is scaled up by two.

  3. We are now very deep -near to the bottom- and there is still some oxygen left which we can waste to our last speculations. Could it be that these astro quantum jumps have occurred even at the planetary level: could large hbar quantum version of Expanding Earth Theory make sense;-). Now we have no oxygen anymore. I am sorry. Maybe I should have warned;-).
Speaking seriously, one can ask whether these reckless speculations could share something with Penrose's theory. Minkowskian conformal invariance is an essential element of Penrose's theory. Minkowskian conformal symmetry is important also in the recent proposal for how twistors diagrams generalize in TGD framework so that a connection at some abstract level can be imagined.

  1. Causal diamonds are defined as intersections of future and past directed light-cones and bring very strongly in mind Penrose diagrams. They indeed define causal units and thus serve as their analogs with upper and lower light-like surfaces of CD serving as the analogs of the conformal infinities at which the positive and negative energy parts of zero energy states reside. Negative/positive energy part of zero energy state looks big crunch or big bang depending on which time direction one looks.

  2. There would be fractal hierarchy of these CDs within CDs - a fractal hierarchy of cosmologies within cosmologies. Note however that the notion of cosmology is somewhat generalized to include also elementary particles at the lower end of hierarchy;-). For electron with ordinary value of Planck constant this sub-cosmology has duration of .1 seconds in Minkowski time, which happens to correspond to the fundamental bio-rhythm.

Addition: I listened a popular science program about inflation yesterday in radio. These programs are very conservative as is science in Finland but of high quality, which cannot be said about many popular science TV programs made with big money at the other side of ocean.

The possible failure of Gaussianity - meaning a complete absence of long range correlations in the spectrum of temperature (mass density) fluctuations - is the hot topic of cosmology nowadays and the data from Planck satellite might resolve the problem within two years. The claim of Penrose and Gurzadyan is that these correlations are visible already in WMAP data. Note that the appearance of bon-Gaussian correlations is different from what one would expect from field theory models on basis of correlation functions since the prediction is correlations on 2-D surfaces. An interesting possibility is that holography allows ot interpret these surfaces as structures assignable to partonic 2-surfaces.

I learned that the presence of these correlations would kill all inflationary models with only single inflaton field. Theoreticians are however skilled and in the worst horror scenario this could lead to a decades of resuscitation attempts by bringing in more and more complexity. Already now there exists huge number of almost working inflationary scenarios.

Also TGD -or at least a big and beautiful part of it- is in a danger zone. The absence of long range correlations would kill the explanation of flatness of three-space as a consequence of quantum criticality - long range correlations in large range of scales are after all the basic prediction of criticality.

Addition: Lubos Motl wrote a second posting about the finding of Penrose and Gurzadyan. Lubos claims that Penrose and Gurzadyan have rediscovered the already known WMAP excess at L=40 partial wave, which indeed represents deviation from the predictions of the inflationary scenario. This additional exceptionally large harmonic would produce the circles but what is the origin of this harmonics? But could it be just what Penrose and Gurzadyan are claiming or something or just single partial wave which is especially strong and what does this mean? Concentric surfaces intersection the z=constant sphere?

Addition: The preprints of Moss et al and Wehus et al claim that the concentric circles of Penrose and Gurzadyan can be reproduced in simulations. Penrose and Gurzadyan have responded the critics and claim that the simulations cannot reproduce the entire series of circles and that there are also other delicate misinterpretations. Personally I remain confused.

I would be happy if someone would list the reasons for believing that exponential expansion is the only explanation for the flatness of 3-space. Is there convincing evidence for exponential expansion? Or is it only flatness which is seen as evidence for the inflation?

Of course, exponential expansion would smooth out the inhomogenities but Lorentz invariance of the space-time sheet representing cosmological evolution could alone explain this since ground states tend to be highly symmetric. There is also a sequence quantum jumps replacing quantum superposition of cosmologies in 4-D sense (making sense in TGD framework where strong form of holography holds true) with a new one in each quantum jump and this evolution could lead to a situation in which the superposition involves only small deformations of Lorentz invariant cosmology. Kind of approach to highly symmetric ground state but in 4-D sense.


At 2:31 AM, Blogger LEO VUYK said...

Dear Matti,

I would propose an alternative explanation for the Low Variance (LV) circles in the WMAP, being the result of the collision or better expansion results between two expanding globular- or egg shaped universes with the same geometrical central point of origin, inside a composition of a so called “raspberry Multiverse”(Blackberry Multiverse is also allowed).
If there are 12 berries around the centre of the raspberry (in Dodecahedron configuration) then the geometry of the distribution of LV circles should show a clear dodecahedron result.
So for a dodecahedron Multiverse we (living inside one of them) should be able to observe five concentric circle systems with a regular distribution placed on a sort of equatorial circle.

However we may expect that anti-material universes in collision with our material universe will produce clarity differences of the circles or even NO circles at all.
So if LV circle systems do not show up between colliding material universes then the pattern will be not as regular as I described.
The Penrose paper does not inform us about this distribution, perhaps in the next one.

Best regards,
Leo Vuyk.

At 8:58 PM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

This is a very strong prediction. Planck satellite will probably show whether you are right or wrong. Must wait for two years (see the addition to the posting).

The presence of any kind of long range correlations -be they circles or something more complex- are problematic for inflation which in its basic from
predicts no correlations at all.

At 11:56 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

Also TGD -or at least a big and beautiful part of it- is in a danger zone. The absence of long range correlations would kill the explanation of flatness of three-space as a consequence of quantum criticality

Ahhhh, that's it. And a whispering Bang :)

At 4:00 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

At 8:41 PM, Blogger L. Riofrio said...

The days of inflationary scenarios are numbered, the phase space they inhabit is shrinking. Lack of fluctuations above about 60 degrees is as obvious as a ship's sails dusappearing over the horizon.

At 10:05 PM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

To Riofrio:

if fluctuations are not Gaussian, one inflaton scenarios are killed. If the claims of Penrose and his collaborator are correct already WMP kills these models. During last decades new unobservable degrees of freedom are introduced routinely (I cannot avoid the association with the endless growth paradigm of market economy): GUTs, inflatons, curvatons, additional dimensions, branes, stacks of branes, intersecting branes,.... Clever mechanism has replaced principle.

I believe in conceptual economy. In TGD framework classical fields are unified in terms of just 4 imbedding space coordinates. Flat 3-space is the quintessential experimental aspect of inflation and believed-to-be-inflation becomes one particular instance of a quantum phase transition meaning a period with accelerating but non-exponential expansion.

At 12:28 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

At 11:11 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

More on the muonic hydrogen, 16.12.2010.

At 11:44 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

I cannot leave out this quote:
In compliance to common
intuition, P is described in classical general relativity
by a subset anti-P—more specifically, a submanifold—of the
points/events at a given timelike coordinate t.

WAU, The Big Book, from Zeilingers group?

At 1:25 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

And one more about a fractal universe

At 1:44 PM, Blogger Zephir said...

I tend to consider, Leo Vuyk's interpretation is most close to truth. From AWT theory follows E8 structure of Universe at both small, both large scales (E8 root system describes the most compact arrangement of hyperspheres, i.e. model of aether unparticles). The exact interpretation of Penrose and Gurzadyan's circle is still unclear. It may be possible, these circles are reflection from event horizon of Universe - we can consider mirror hall model of Universe in this connection.

At 1:52 PM, Blogger Zephir said...

/*..So for a dodecahedron Multiverse we (living inside one of them) should be able to observe five concentric circle systems with a regular distribution placed on a sort of equatorial circle.

We may not be able to see all of them due the Doppler anisotropy shift, which will blur some of them.

At 8:38 PM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

Dodecahedron universes and other similar universes are interesting idea and I have myself considered this kind of possibility. Macroscopic quantum coherence due to large gravitational hbar would allow highly symmetric and even lattice like cosmologies with long range correlations in geometry. My impression is however that the strong predictions of these models have failed.

Lubos represented and argument according to which Penrose and Gurzdyan's circles reduce to single circle and Penrose and Gurzadyan have made misinterpretation. The circles of coherence would correspond to acoustic peaks with single exception. Might well be possible.

If this is the case my own hasty proposal, which would assign the odd ball to the intersection of surface carrying dark matter with z=constant sphere, might survive. It is politically wisest to call this speculation just a speculation. I must be however honest: it is clear that uf macrocopic quantum coherence due to large gravitational hbar is there it must have some physical correlates and their absence might mean a sad end to TGD.

Planck will tell about long range correlations. These years with LHC and Planck will be painful time for poor theorists: so many models get murdered by merciless facts ;-).

At 11:35 AM, Blogger Ulla said... The Observational Case
For 7-8 GeV Dark Matter, 16.11.2010.

At 3:47 PM, Blogger Zephir said...

/* My impression is however that the strong predictions of these models have failed...*/

On the contrary. IMO these concentric "circles" are rather vertices of docecahedron, thus being another evidence of E8 heterotic structure of Universe. Mr. Garret should extend his E8 theory to the cosmologic scale...

Does it mean, Prof. Penrose is wrong? Actually not quite: we are living in "hall of mirrors" composed of nested Gosset-Petrie polytopes, so we can see the neighbouring universe cells - i.e. these more distant in apparent "Universe history".

At 3:58 PM, Blogger Zephir said...

/* Lubos represented and argument according to which Penrose and Gurzdyan's circles reduce to single circle and Penrose and Gurzadyan have made misinterpretation. The circles of coherence would correspond to acoustic peaks with single exception. Might well be possible. */

The somewhat tricky aspect of AWT is, everyone can have his bit of truth in most distant aspects of reality. In Smoeller's cosmology acoustic waves are collapsing shock waves.

The resulting structure corresponds dodecahedron "hall of mirrors" model, but it's actually a root vector system of monster group, where the Lie E8 group remains approximation of it. This is because Lie E8 group is not just some void geometrical structure. It’s root vector system is describing the tightest structure of kissing scale invariant hyperspheres ("unparticles"), where the kissing points of spheres are sitting at the centers of another hyperspheres, recursively. The Aether Wave Theory proposes at least two dual ways, how to interpret such structure:

The cosmological one is maybe easier to realize: it considers, the current Universe generation is formed by interior of giant dense collapsar, which is behaving like black hole from outer perspective. This collapse was followed by phase transition, which proceeded like crystallization from over-saturated solution by avalanche-like mechanism. During this, the approximately spherical zones of condensing false vacuum have intersect mutually, and from these places the another vacuum condensation has started (a sort of nucleation effect). We can observe the residuum of these zones as a dark matter streaks. The dodecahedron structure of these zones should corresponds the E8 group geometry, as being observed from inside (i.e. from past perspective due the Universe "expansion").

The second interpretation of E8 is relevant for Planck scale, i.e. for outer perspective (the future). The dense interior of black hole is forming the physical vacuum, which is filled by spongy system of density fluctuations, similar to nested foam. Such structure has even a behavior of soap foam, because it gets more dense after introducing of energy by the same way, like soap foam shaken inside of closed vessel. Such behavior leads to the quantum behavior of vacuum and particle-wave duality. Every energy wave, exchanged between pair of particles (i.e. density fluctuations of foam) is behaving like less or more dense blob of foam, i.e. like gauge boson particle. Every boson can exchange its energy with another particles, including other gauge bosons, thus forming the another generation of intercalated particles.

Therefore the E8 Lie group solves the trivial question: "Which structure should have the tightest lattice of particles, exchanged/formed by another particles?". And such question has perfect meaning even from classical physics point of view! Such question has a perfect meaning in theory, describing the most dense structure of inertial particles, which we can ever imagine, i.e. the interior of black hole.

At 4:15 PM, Blogger Zephir said...

You mathematicians are trying to describe Universe as exactly, as possible. But the reality becomes quite fuzzy at both quantum, both cosmological scale. Our Universe appears like sparse mesh of dark matter fluctuations, each bubble/cell of which determines its own multiverse. The more distant these boundaries are, the more fuzzy they appear from local observer perspective.

In such way, Big Bang appears like quite gradualistic process from this remote perspective and it even proceeds inside of our galaxy during its evaporation and condensation inside of many stars. It's delocalized process, which occurs at many places of space-time. And we can see many neighbouring cells at the distant scale, which means, we can see many Universe histories from the same place. IMO Big Bang is just an event horizon, nothing more.

At 7:50 PM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

I cannot count myself to these mathematicians.

Fractal structure of cosmologies within cosmologies is what TGD predicts. The basic structure -causal diamond- analogous to expansion followed by contraction is present already at elementary particle level. For electron it lasts .1 seconds. Expansion occurs in bursts corresponding to quantum jumps in which also hbar increases: Expanding Earth theory is one consequence.

Bib Bang is smoothed to small whisper amplified to the first cry of the baby since mass per co-moving volume goes to zero at the limit of vanishing proper time.

What differentiates this from inflationary scenarios is predictivity and absence of all the GUT stuff: inflatons, curvatons, weird Higgs potentials, etc.... I do not even want to speak about the weirdness populating M-theory and F-theory models because it makes me just sad.

At 7:55 PM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

About E_8. E_8 is unrealistic as symmetries are considered. It has however same rank r=8 as the symmetry group in TGD and same construction of charges Kac-Moody algebra generators from neutral ones gives E_8 generators, only the weights are different.

At 3:52 AM, Anonymous Matti J. said...

No evidence of time before Big Bang ... 0.665.html

At 4:24 AM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

Thanks to Matti J. [I think I can guess what comes after J;-).].

Penros'se idea does not have very bright future. One must however remember the observation stressed also by Lubos that there is L=4o anomalously strong partial wave. This predicts circles and to me it is not clear what kind of physics this represents. The fractal honeycomb structure would suggest more general structures.

At 1:16 AM, Blogger Leo Vuyk said...

The latest lv distribution published by Penrose seems to have three or possibly even four ellipses. if we may count them as contact areas between universes, then we live inside one finite universal bubble in a cube (3) or even cube-octahedron (4) configuration.
SEE:Democratic Free Will and Telepathy in the Instant Entangled Multiverse.

At 1:44 AM, Blogger Leo Vuyk said...

see also:


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