Tuesday, June 19, 2012

DNA, speech, music, and ordinary sound

Peter Gariaev's group has made rather dramatic claims about DNA during years. The reported findings have served as inspiration in the development of TGD based view about living matter (see this, this, this, this and this).

  1. The group has proposed that the statistical distributions of nucleotides and codons in the intronic portion of DNA resemble the distribution of letters and words in the natural languages. For instance, it is proposed that Zipf law applying to natural languages applies to the distributions of codons in the intronic portion of DNA. One can study the popularity of the words in natural languages and order them against their popularity. Zipf law states that the integer characterizing popularity is in constant proportion to the number of times it appears in given long enough text.

  2. It has been also claimed that DNA can be reprogrammed using modulated laser light or even radio waves. I understand that reprogramming means a modified gene expression. Gariaev's group indeed proposes that the meaning of the third nucleotide (having a rather low significance in the DNA-aminoacid correspondence) in the genetic codon depends on the context giving rise to a context dependent translation to amino-acids. This is certainly a well-known fact for certain variants of the genetic code. This context dependence might make possible the re-programming. The notion of dark DNA allows to consider much more radical possibility based on the transcription of dark DNA to mRNA followed by translation to aminoacds. This could effectively replaced genes with new ones.

  3. Also the modulation of the laser light by speech is claimed to have the re-programming effect. The broad band em wave spectrum resulting in the scattering of red laser light on DNA is reported to have rather dramatic biological effects. The long wave length part of this spectrum can be recorded and transformed to sound waves and these sound waves are claimed to have the same biological effects as the light. The proposal is that acoustic solitons propagating along DNA represent this effect on DNA.
I do not have the competence to make statements about the plausibility of these claims. TGD view about quantum biology makes also rather strong claims. The natural question is however whether a justification for the claims of Gariaev and collaborators could be found in TGD framework? In particular, can one say about possible effects of sound on DNA. One intriguing fact about sound perception is that music and speech have meaning whereas generic sounds to not. Could one say something interesting about how this meaning is generated at the level of DNA?

Basic picture

Before continuing it is good to restate the basic TGD inspired ideas about the generation of meaning.

  1. The generation of the negentropic entanglement is the correlate for the experience of the meaning. In the model inspired by Becker's findings discussed in the earlier posting, the generation of negentropic entanglement involves a generation of supra currents along flux tubes moving in the electric field parallel to them. This is a critical phenomenon taking place when the voltage along the flux tube is near critical value. The generation of nerve pulse near critical value of the resting potential is one example of this criticality. Becker's direct currents involved with the healing of wounds is another example.

    The flow of the supra current gives rise to the acceleration of charges along the flux tubes and generation of Cooper pairs or even many-electrons systems at smaller space-time sheets in negentropically entangled state and carrying metabolic energy quantum as zero point kinetic energy. The period of negentropic entanglement gives rise to a conscious experience to which one can assign various attributes such as understanding, attention, and so on. Negentropic entanglement would measure the information contained by a rule having as instances the state pairs in the quantum superposition defining the entangled state. When the period of negentropic entanglement ceases, the metabolic energy is liberated.

  2. Remote activation of DNA by analogs of laser beams is another essential piece of TGD inspired quantum biology (see this). In the proposed addressing mechanism a collection of frequencies serves as a password activating intronic portions of DNA. This would take place via a resonance for the proposed interaction between photons and dark supra currents flowing along magnetic flux tubes and perhaps also along DNA strands or flux tubes parallel to them. The superposition of electric fields of photons (massless extremals) with the electric fields parallel to flux tubes (so that massless extremals serving as correlates for laser beams would traverse the flux tube in orthogonal direction).

  3. The flux tubes, and more generally flux sheets labelled by the value of Planck constant, and along which the radiation arrives would be transversal to DNA and contain DNA strands. This kind of flux tubes and sheets also define the connections to the magnetic body, and form parts of it. A given flux sheet would naturally select the portion of DNA, which is activated by the radiation: it could be a portion of intronic part of DNA activating in turn a gene. These flux tubes and sheets could be connected to the lipids of nuclear and cell membranes - also cell membranes of other cells - as assumed in the model of DNA as topological quantum computer. The sheets could also give rise to a hierarchy of genomes - besides genome one would have super-genome in which genomes are organelles are integrated by flux sheets to a large coherently expressed structure containing individual genomes like page of a book contains lines of text. These pages would be in turn organized to a book - hyper-genome as I called it. One could have also libraries, etc... There would fractal flux quanta inside flux quanta structure.

Phonons and photons In TGD Universe

Consider next phonons and their coupling to photons in TGD Universe.

  1. Sound waves could quite well transform to electromagnetic radiation since living matter is piezo-crystal transforming sound to radiation and vice versa. Microwave hearing represents an example of this kind transformation. This would require that photons of given energy and varying value of Planck constant couple to phonons with the same energy, Planck constant, and frequency.

  2. Whether one can assign to phonons a non-standard value of Planck constant is not quite clear, but there seems to be no reason preventing this. If so, even photons of audible sounds would have energies above thermal threshold and have direct quantal effects on living matter if they have same Planck constant as the photons with same frequency.

  3. Acoustic phonons represent longitudinal waves and this would require longitudinal photons. In Maxwell's electrodynamics they are not possible but in TGD framework photon is predicted to have a small mass and also longitudinal photons are possible.

  4. For general condensed matter systems one can have also optical phonons for which the polarization is orthogonal to the wave vector and these could couple to ordinary photons. The motion of the charged particles in the electromagnetic field of massless extremal (topological light ray) would be a situation in which phonons and photons accompany each other. This would make possible the piezo-electric mechanism.
Under these assumptions the collections of audible frequencies could also represent passwords activating the intronic portion of the genome and lead to gene expression or some other activities. If one believes on the hypothesis that DNA acts like topological quantum computer based on the braid strand connections between nucleotides in the intronic portion of DNA with the lipids of the nuclear and/or cell membranes, also topological quantum computation type processes could be activated by the collections of sound frequencies (see this).

What distinguishes speech and music from sounds without meaning?

Speech and music ares very special form of sound in that they have direct meaning. The more one thinks about these facts, the more non-trivial they look. For music - say singing - the frequency of the carrier wave is piecewise constant whereas for speech it remains constant and the amplitude modulation is important. In fact, by slowing down the recorded speech, one gets the impression that carrier frequency is actually modulated like in chirp (frequency goes down and covers a range of frequencies). What is the mechanism giving to speech and music its meaning and in this manner distinguishes them from other sounds?

Besides the frequency also phase is important for both speech and music experience. Speech and reverse speech sound quite different the intensity in frequency space is same. Therefore the relative phases associated with the Fourier coefficients of various frequencies must be important. For music simple rational multiples of the fundamental define the scale. Could it be that also the frequencies relevant to the comprehension of speech correspond to these rational multiples?

Suppose that one indeed believes on the proposed vision based on the fundamental role of negentropic entanglement in generation of meaning and takes seriously the proposed mechanisms for generating it. Can one understand why music and speech differ from general sounds and what distinguishes between them?

  1. With these assumptions suitable collections of frequencies sound wave would indee activates the intronic portion of DNA by generating negentropic entanglement. Also other dark flux tubes than those assignable to DNA are involved. For instance, hair cells responsible for hearing of sounds around particular frequencies could involved flux tubes and utilize similar mechanism. Allowing only hair cells would define the conservative option. On the other hand, one could well claim that what happens in ear has nothing to do with the understanding of the speech and music, it could take place only at the level of neuronal nuclei.

  2. Could the direct interaction of sound waves with magnetic flux tubes generate the experiences of speech and music? In other words, assign meaning to sounds? The criterion for sound to have an interpretation as speech or music would be that it contains the resonance frequencies needed to activate the DNA, or more generally generate dark super currents generating Cooper pairs in this manner loading metabolic energy storages. This would apply to both speech and musical sounds.

  3. The pitch of the speech and musical sound can vary. We are aware of the key of the music piece and of modulations of the key and remember the starting key, and it is highly satisfactory to make a return to "home" defined by the original key. This would imply that the overall scale of the collection of frequencies can be varied and that the pitch of the speech defines a natural expectation value of this scale. For persons possessing so called absolute ear this scaling symmetry would be broken in a well-defined sense.

  4. Musical scales involve frequencies coming as rational multiples of the basic frequency. Octaves - power of two multiples- of the frequency can be said to be equivalent as far musical experience is considered. One might understand the special role of rational multiples of the basic frequency if the Fourier components have same phase periodically so that the experience is invariant under discrete time translations. This requires commensurable frequencies expressible as rational multiples of the same fundamental frequency. The preferred role of p-adic primes comings as powers of two could relate to the octave phenomenon.

  5. Are the relative phases of different Fourier components important for music experience? If one requires a periodical occurrence of maximal possible intensity (maximal constructive interference) then the relative phases must vanish at the values of time for maximal possible intensity. What seems essential that the presence of commensurate frequencies gives rise to time translation invariant sensation whereas speech consists of pulses.

Are speech and music quantum duals like position and momentum?

Frequencies are crucial for music experience. In the case of of speech the relative phases are very important as the example of reverse speech demonstrates. How a given phoneme is heard is determined to high degree by the frequency spectrum in the beginning of the phoneme (this distinguishes between consonants). Vowels are nearer to notes in vocalization. Speech consists of pulses and destructive interference between different frequencies is required to generate pulses and different pulse shapes so that phase information is important. At least the harmonics of the basic rational multiples of the fundamental are necessary for speech.

One can criticize the previous discussion in that it has been completely classical. Phase and frequency are in wave mechanics canonically conjugate variables analogous to position and momentum. Is it really possible to understand the difference between music and speech purely classically by assuming that one can assign to sound waves both frequencies and phases simultaneously - just like one assigns to a particle sharp values of both momentum and position? Or should one use either representation either in terms numbers of phonons in different modes labelled by frequencies or as coherent states of phonons with ill defined phonon numbers but well defined amplitudes? Could the coherent states serve as the analogs of classical sound waves. Speech would be as near as possible to classical sound and music would be quantal. Of course, there is a large variety of alternative choices of basis states between these two extremes as a specialist in quantum optics could tell.

Suppose that this picture is more or less correct. What could be the minimal scenario allowing to understand the differences between speech and music?

  1. Only a subset of frequencies could activate DNA (or if one wants to be conservative, the hair cells) also in the case of speech. One could still pick up important frequencies for which the ratios are simples rational numbers as in the case of musical scale plus their harmonics If this assumption is correct, then speech from which all frequencies except for the harmonics of the simple rational multiples of the fundamental are removed, should be still be comprehensible as speech. The pitch of the speech would determine a good candidate for the fundamental frequency.

  2. The harmonics of frequencies activating DNA would be crucial for speech. Harmonics are present also in music and their distribution allows to distinguish between different instruments and persons. The deviation of musical notes from ideal Fock states would correspond to this.

  3. The naive guess is that the simple rational multiples of fundamental and the possibility of having their harmonics could be reflected in the structure of intronic portions of DNA as repetitive structures of various sizes. This cannot be the case since the wavelengths of ordinary photons would be so small that the energies would be in keV range. Neither is this expected to be the case. It is magnetic flux tubes and sheets traversing the DNA which carry the radiation and the natural lengths assignable to these flux quanta should correspond to the wave lengths. The larger, the flux quantum, the lower the frequency and the larger the value of Planck constant. Harmonics of the fundamental would appear for given flux tube length naturally.

    The DNA strands and flux tubes and sheets form a kind of electromagnetic music instrument with flux quanta taking the role of guitar strings and DNA strands and other structures such as lipids and possible other molecules to which flux tubes get attached taking the role of frets in guitar. This analogy suggests that for wave lengths measured in micrometers the basic frequencies correspond to the distances between "frets" defined by cell and nuclear membranes in the tissue in the scale of organism. This would relate the spectrum of resonance frequencies to the spectrum of distances between DNAs in the tissue.

    For wavelengths corresponding to very large values of Planck constant giving rise to frequencies in VLF and ELF range and corresponding also to audible frequencies, the preferred wave lengths would correspond to lengths of flux quanta in Earth size scale. One should understand whether the quantization of these lengths in simple rational ratios could take place for the preferred extremals.

  4. Could the pulse shape associated with massless extremals (MEs, topological light rays) allow to distinguish classically between speech and music at the level of space-time correlates? Linear superposition of Fourier components in the direction of ME is possible and this allows to speak about pulse shape. It allows also the notions of coherent state and Fock state for given direction of wave vector. Essential would be the restriction of the superposition of fields in single direction of propagation to be distinguished from the superposition of the effects of fields associated with different space-time sheets on multiply topologically condensed particle. Maybe this would allow to make testable predictions.
This text can be found at my homepage from an article with title Quantum Model for the Direct Currents of Becker. See also the chapter Quantum Mind, Magnetic Body, and Biological Body of "TGD based view about living matter and remote mental interactions".


matpitka@luukku.com said...

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For some reason the comment does not however appear on the blog so that I add it by hand.

Ulla said...

Bergson says that reality has extension as well as duration. However, space is not a void or vacuum which is filled by reality. Things are not in space, space is in things. Thus, emptiness can only be conceptualized by suppressing a space-occupying reality. Similarly, nothingness can only be conceptualized by suppressing the awareness of being. According to Bergson, emptiness cannot be directly perceived, it can only be conceptualized.

Seems to be a wise man.

◘Fractality◘ said...


Massless Extremal = Mathematically-programmed beam?

Adenine = TIME
Thiamine = SPACE
Guanine = MIND
Cytosine = RADIANCE

There are 64 letters written with 4 amino acids. 64 = 4 CUBED.

Each of the 64 codons is written with 3 of the 4 amino acids to create mathematically 64.

6 line structures - identical to the HEXAGRAMS OF THE I-CHING.

In the Fibonacci sequence, the harmonic numbers 5, 8, 13 are relevant:

5 creates the PENTATONIC SCALE.

8 creates the DIATONIC SCALE.

13 creates the CHROMATIC scale.

DNA programs are derived from the Akashic records.

These genetic programs are determined in accord with the karmic disposition of the entity that will incarnate on Earth.

How is DNA dispersed? How did it get to planet Earth?

Orwin said...

Ulla, Bergson is echoing a broad Indian tradition of vijnanadvaita, running from Buddhist vijnana to Advaita Vedanta, in which the perceived object is a construct, and must be suppressed to reveal the void or medium (akasha). This Wilber et al just don't know: nobody owns it as their doctrine!!!

Also intelligible sound is the subtle body, but there's an equilibrium involved, the focus of Patanjali yoga. So you'all are still on track, and ahead of the pack.

Here's an E8 I Ching genetics: http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/ichgene6.html

L. Edgar Otto said...


Without getting lost in DNA and I Ching 101 you can find a more modern analysis on my blog at it was meant to be understood, by Leibniz at the dawn of the computer age noting the binary patterns (1600's) There is a great deal more to this than sacred geometry.


Your last few questions and explorations were most interesting it would be nice if we could work together some on the prime numbers involved as theory.

The PeSla

All: rhea or word In the beginning God spoke the world into existence. and later "logos" or word in the new testament. Who wrote the so called cosmic library? Is this difference not that of Bergson on one side in the usual debate between sensations and reductionist? We go deep beyond and before the ancient texts Ulla and for some of us who know that no one knows such answers- well we have a few new answers never seen before.

Now MATTI, just as one may conclude there are only five loops (Lubos awhile back presumably after reading us) Can the sheets have a specific cycle of five as in the Euclidean geometry? or some finite number- is this answerable with what we know of the infinity of primes?

L. Edgar Otto said...

BTW My local library had no books on Finish considering the influence of that nation for physics over the last couple of decades I thought a birdseye view of the words and structure would help our communication and my understanding.


L. Edgar Otto said...

Matti et al,

The third base of a codon (as if it once said the DNA code was really a 2and a half code can be seen as an artifact of the binary (I Ching analog) structure. Some think our code once had 4 lines for the 6 in the enumeration of codons and clearly one can ask as well as propose a reading of 8 lines for a 256 system which can now be shown that DNA can be read that way.

But it is not that simple as there are layers of the code anyway and 64 is certainly related to 3space models. Plus one achieved different complexity in the reading of the code backwards and the simple count of the mass of the atoms that make up a protein.

Beyond the zeta function ideas and in relation to raw numbers, the integers being flat (45degree) slope between convergence and divergence we may ask is there a limit to the dimensions expressed as 256 is presumably symmetry in four space (or alternatively does this show only a first few of certain Fermat like primes.

In general I imagine these odd patterns and natural generational count shifts in nature in that primes have no simple formula that this is a strength to the diversity possible in a theory and only seems in our time (or perhaps we biased by our 64 DNA structure as the ground) instead of a chaos of confusion are uncertainty of what is coincidence in numbers. We in effect in theory have to generalize the Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic in the uniqueness question beyond our debate of the linguistic or mechanical elements that underlay our theories.

Clearly in matters of count or computation the Kantian stance can reasserted itself again as part of the picture coming by the discrete into the back door. But this does not detract from the continuous and more linguistic Platonic models that are also needed.

In theory on the debate level one man's quality can be a quantity of another. We are constantly interchanging stereotypes and archetypes this way quite beside our confused probability measures without a wider view such as TGD.

As far as putting abstract ideas on a fourfold base system let us consider also 8 or more base readings now shown to be possible where these structures arise.

ThePeSla at the library not the coffee shop.

L. Edgar Otto said...

ulla et al:


Ulla said...

Those words of Bergson I think is very much up to date. Think wormhole and time/speed. Or the difference between NO and HO in biology?

I just feel I know absolutely nothing, my brain is totally blank, so thanks :)

I have looked at Tony Smith's I'Ching thinking linked to Lie, but to say it is fractal? It is also here. I have another idea about DNA, which still is premature. It has with purine/pyrimidines to do, as here. There are 'words' or 'boxes' in DNA, different from codons. Maybe the codons are just a small glimpse?

These dam Kähler fields and CP2 fields and time, gravity link are overwhelming, also when they are linked to mind and consciousness. My intuition tells me there are something lost, but what? The Soul?

Why Maxwell solution is preferred, I cannot either understand, when gravity is doing the deformations in WCW, creating tensions/energy. There is also a world outside energy and E=mc^2, which we cannot measure by em-fields, but maybe on matrix with holes? In spiritual thinking you must still all your senses to be able to hear this 'unified U-matrix'? DC-current is about holes/particles, as is acup. The old Chinese medicine also talk about the origin of Chi in this way. As do biology with creation of acids as markers. Acid is protons. This Moffat had another solution than Einstein, in http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0506021v7.pdf Scalar-Tensor-Vector Gravity Theory, which makes me think at Kea very much.

An easier (?) way to do this is to look at the duality/trinity and condensed matter? The many-body problem ,like the Feynman diagrams, in TGD should be made of these, ('emergence' of hologram) but I got no answer.

So,I feel very blank :)

Ulla said...

No books in Finnish thinking will help you understand Mattis mind :)

Ulla said...


and production of a hole in a quantum dot http://www.onlineinvestingai.com/blog/2009/02/04/whats-the-spin-on-quantum-dots/

Ulla said...

Ryan Gregory gave a talk on A Gouldian view of the genome and he has posted the video of his presentation (see below). I urge you to watch the whole thing but, if you only have a few minutes, then watch the beginning where Ryan describes the important lessons that Gould taught us.

Narrative: The details of "pure history" are important.
Origins: The reasons a trait first evolved and why it still exists may be different.
Exaptation: Features can become co-opted to serve new functions.
Development: The connections between genotype and phenotype are important
Pluralism: Small genetic changes accumulating slowly over time due to natural selection is not all there is.
Contingency: Unique events can have a large influence in the long run, even if they seem minor initially.
Hierarchy: Evolutionary processes can occur at multiple levels.
Scholarship: Know the history of one's field.

The strange thing about this list is that almost everyone will say they know all these lessons. Some will even argue that the list is trivial and Gould's legacy is overblown. However, in normal discourse it turns out that most people "forget" these lessons and it's only when push comes to shove that they acknowledge them—even then the acknowledgement is reluctant and sprinkled with caveats.


Orwin said...

To ThePesla:

Covariant tensors demonstrate Leibniz' Chain Rule, unlike contravariant/affine. I think the rule was named after the Great Chain of Being, now understood as orders (in Descartes' sense) of structure: 2D, 3D, etc.

Prime dimensionality follows from Chinese Number Theorem! At level 5, which is hard in Kahler: cf Lubos' remark.

On binaries: I think bits of probability, degrees of freedom (df). Are we too literal with dimensions/geometry? Spin is distinct df! So what about charge and parity? And CPT theorem as dimensions, curced by parity violation??

Ulla said...

Wikipedia has this note on Chain of Beings: This idea of a great chain of being can be traced to Plato's division of the world into the Forms, which are full beings, and sensible things, which are imitations of the Forms and are both being and not being.

Assumption: FORM was prior to function? As Matter is thought to be prior to living matter. Form is a result, though.

Now we look at the functions, the bindings and couplings that result in dimensions and form?

Einstein's theory of general relativity shows that the true geometry of spacetime is not Euclidean geometry. For example, if a triangle is constructed out of three rays of light, then in general the interior angles do not add up to 180 degrees due to gravity. Wikipedia.


and basically the hadron? But the SELF?

http://physics.technion.ac.il/~odim/hofstadter.html note the cold/warm areas as shifts. Compare to Berry curvature and massgaps.

http://rspa.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/465/2104/1173.full.pdf+html light and time

L. Edgar Otto said...


Not sure which Lubos comment you referred to but he has a post today which considers something he regards as a new approach... however, I put it much more clearly and general today on my blog (another coincidence of synchronicity?) and

Ulla, this also answers some questioned in your comments here.

Cheers, the PeSla

matpitka@luukku.com said...


Maybe you refer to Lubos's latest posting about Higgs. Lubos continues to make his weird identification of "new particle" and "Higgs" and rants against experimentalists who have more balanced view.

It is highly probable that a new particle is discovered: hardly anyone disagrees about this. But its identification as Higgs without testing rates in all decay channels that Higgs should have, is very weird- to put it mildly. Lubos himself would probably use "idiotic" instead of "weird" here.

Existing data are not consistent with the identification as standard model Higgs. I remember also article claiming that also SUSY Higgs interpretation is in difficulties. And SUSY itself is to high degree excluded.

It it of course possile that the data of last year are still too meagrer and statistical fluctuations will explain the discrepancies. We simply do not know.

There are also the recent findings of Fermi suggesting particles at 145 GeV and perhaps also at around 125 GeV - interpreted as candidates for dark matter particles- raising the question about identification for 125 GeV and earlier 145 GeV bump (reported by CDF ) proposed to be Higgs.

Dark particles as Higgses? Certainly not! Higgs interpretation in this case is out of question but TGD inspired interpretation as particles analogous to pions of scaled up variant of hadron physics "almost-predicted" by TGD might make sense. This would mean a nice convergence of information from totally different sources.

But again: the identification of this particle with Higgs reflects to me the strange extremist character of Lubos's belief system manifesting also in his opinions about climate, climate researchers, about intelligence of those who do not have white skin or happen to be women, his vision about "leftists" as criminals, and so on....

Ulla said...

Doesn't a new particle give TGD troubles? I understood the dimensions in TGD are built on the particles generations? But this is no fourth generation?

What would a fourth generation mean?

Ulla said...

Gauge forces I meant in above, sorry.

Could this one be something? Kaluza Klein in effective 2D dimensions by Holger Nielsen et co. 2911, at least references can be good?


Now I stop and try to learn instead. This was really eye-opening for me. Now I can relate things much better, and even understand where Kea stranded. How could she even for a second believe that the LHC results meant she was wrong? No, because she did something completely different. Quantum gravity on a Matrix :) As you said :)

Ulla said...

Sorry for my existence :(

This must cheer you up a bit.


Here we show that the exchange of spin waves between extended topological defects, such as domain walls, can result in novel magnetic states. The magnetic modulation has a very long period of 340 Å at 3 K and exhibits an anomalously large number of higher-order harmonics. These domain walls are formed by Ising-like Tb spins. They interact by exchanging magnons propagating through the Fe magnetic sublattice. The resulting force between the domain walls has a rather long range that determines the period of the incommensurate state and is analogous to the pion-mediated Yukawa interaction between protons and neutrons in nuclei. With pics.

In my eyes looks like attracting/repelling waves, also found for the Casimir effect. This COULD indicate a ZEO?

Picture text: The ‘8-armed candlestick' in this unusual image of the measurements is proof that the ‘walls’ of the domains in TbFeO3 repel each other at certain temperatures and therefore lie at a fixed distance from each other.


matpitka@luukku.com said...

To Ulla:

New particles would be highly desirable from TGD view point.

TGD "almost-predicts" - not only some exotic particles- but entier scaled up copies of hadron physics, one of them should be seen sooner or later at LHC and the Higgs candidates and dark matter candidates would both be identifiable as pion like states of this new hadron physics.