Thursday, November 10, 2011

Time for time

There are moments when any-one gets deeply frustrated to the situation in what one might call "my own field". For almost two decades ago this kind of deep frustration plus certain personal experiences were the reasons why I started to work with quantum consciousness and quantum biology. For few years ago my attention was directed again to particle physics and basic mathematical challenges of TGD. The last year has been very intense since LHC and Fermilab and also some other experiments have been feeding data directly relevant for TGD. The effective neutrino superluminality was a pleasant surprise which might eventually force even the most bullish colleagues to accept TGD if they want to continue doing funded physics.

The rather recent events - here I mean the really weird censoship in Science2.0 using various dirty tricks that one might expect only a 12 year old computer nerd to use - have however re-created the frustrated feelings again. Is it really true that people calling themselves theoretical physicist are not able to do anything else than rehashing theories which have been dead for decades? Just a look at hep-th in makes me depressed. I can only wonder in what is the world these fellows are living in. Even worse, some colleagues seem to spend their time to silly censoring tricks in blogs! It is really frustrating to see how low the intellectual standards in particle physics theory nowadays are.

For these reasons I was very happy when I discovered that Sean Carroll in Cosmic Variance gave links to really interesting talks in Time conference arranged by fQXI. I have not been too happy for the elitistic nature of these conferences making impossible the communication of really new theoretical ideas. By listening the brilliant talk by neuroscientist David Eagleman, I however learned that this conference made possible communication of extremely interesting experimental findings about the relation of the time of physicist to the subjective time. I sincerely hope that my colleagues would listen this talk and realize that there are fascinating problems to be solved. There is simply no theory and therefore no list of dead theories among which graduate student is allowed to choose as in theoretical physics.

Eagleman together with other neuro scientists make distinction between time and subjective time and the experimental work has revealed that this relationship looks very complex and is poorly understood. One of the key realizations forced by TGD inspired theory of consciousness - in a well-defined sense a generalization of quantum measurement theory - is that geometric time (the time of field equations) and subjective time (experienced time) are two differentnotions. The challenge is to understand how they relate and under what conditions and in what approximation their identification performed routinely my the naive colleagues is possible. This was an excellent reason for continuing listening and I warmly recommend this for the reader. Also the other lectures might be equally rewarding. In the following I just represent TGD based interpretation of the findings and suggest that the reader would not take it too seriously and would try to build his or her own interpretation.

Eagleman talks about what he calls relativity of subjective time. This has of course nothing to do with the relativity of the geometric time. At the basic level subjective time need not even allow any metric measure (as is the case in TGD where subjective time corresponds to a sequence of quantum jumps).

1. Flash-lag effect and its modification

Eagleman tells first about very simple visual illusion known as flash-lag effect. One rotates a small circle around a circular orbit. As the circle passes the horizontal line there is a flash of light in the middle of the circle. If our perception were ideal the flash would be perceived in the middle of the circle. The circle is perceived to be 5 degrees ahead of the flash.

The first explanation to come in mind is that brain anticipates the motion of the flash and represent it to us in a position in which it would be in nearby future. Eagleman decided to test this proposal and studied three different situations. Two of them correspond to a circle rotating in opposite directions and the third one to a situation in which the circle stops at the position of the flash. The theory predicts that the circle is perceived to be ahead in all situations since the perveiver should not know anything about what happens in future. The surprise was that there was no flash-lag when the circle stopped. As if the brain would know what happens in the nearby future.

This kind of observation is not new. I remember more than a decade old experiment studing the galvanic response created by emotionally very provocative picture appearing as an odd-ball in a series of neutral pictures. This kind of response was observed. The mystery was that it was observed before the picture was seen! The result was of course not taken seriously by serious scientists. When a serious scientist associates something with the word "parapsychology" he loses totally ability to rational thinking and begins to rage.

The conclusion is that our moment of subjective time seems to have a finite duration about 80 ms and all events that occur in this time interval are associated with one and same moment of subjective time. This time interval would correspond to 12.5 Hz frequency. In TGD framework the interpretation could be in terms of the time scale assignable to causal diamond (CD) identified as intersection of future and past directed light-cones, which serves as imbedding space-correlate for the moment of consciousness: this time would be the temporal distance between the tips of CD.

The fractal hierarchy of quantum jumps within quantum jumps (identifiable as with a hierarchy of selves withing selves) has the hierarchy of CDs as an imbedding space correlate. For electron the time scale of CD is 100 seconds. What is troubling is that 80 ms corresponds to a time interval which is by 20 per cent shorter. One could of course assign this time scale to some cyclotron frequency in TGD framework but I would be very happy if it would correspond to a time duration of electron's CD.

As Eagleman tells, perception involves gaps. For instance, during saccadic motion necessary for visual consciousness (the explanation in TGD framework is that the conscious experience is associated with nondeterministic change, quantum jump) visual system is not on. We do not however perceive these gaps although we perceive the gaps created by putting lights off. Could it be that the gaps are absent because the 100 ms CDs in the sequences have overlap producing on the average 80 ms intervals without overlap? Could the absence of gaps also tell us that it is retina and various sensory organs which build the fundamental qualia and that brain only constructs a cognitive representation about it decomposing the world to objects with certain properties and names and also builds all kinds of useful associations? This picture applies to all sensory qualia in TGD Universe and one can circumvent various objections against it in terms of TGD view about time.

2. We live in the past: but in what sense?

One surprising fact about consciousness is that we live in the past. The justification for this in terms of standard neuroscience, where brain builds both sensory and cognitive representations of the external world, does not require refined arguments.

Neural communications are extremely slow using light-velocity as the standard. The velocities of nerve pulses are between 1-100 m/s as compared with the light velocity 3× 108 m/s. The communication of the sensory data to brain takes time which can be of order second. The data coming from various sensory organs with varying velocities must be processed and combined to single view about external world at associative cortex. This takes time since it is the slowest signalst that determine the time used for the processing. Eagleman gives a humorous example: tall people should live father in past than the short ones since it takes longer time for neural signals from feet to arrive from cortex to the brain! Different sensory inputs must be also combined together in a realistic manner.

Is the brain really able to meet this enormous challenge? The representation about the external world is not enough: this representation must be also realistic and 80 ms seems to represent the maximum duration of moment of sensory consciousness. Is the velocity of nerve pulses quite too slow to achieve this? And is information processing based on nerve pulse conduction really fast enough?

  1. These questions could have been motivation for TGD proposal (or almost-prediction) that sensory organs are seats of primary sensory qualia experienced instantanously.

  2. They could have also motivated what proposal that quantum entanglement is needed to bind various parts of the body and brain to form single coherent conscious unit. Quantum entanglement makes possible effective signalling with infinite velocity. Of course, genuine signals are not in question. It is better to speak about macroscopic system behaving like an elementary particle. Dark matter realized as a hierarchy of macroscopic quantum phases with a larger value of Planck constant is what would make this possible.

  3. Light velocity is ideal for the communication purposes in the scale of biological body. Could it be that biology might have been stupid enough to miss this kind of an opportunity? Could it be that neuroscientists are the stupid one and simply on a wrong track? In TGD inspired model dark photons with large value of hbar (bio-photons would be dark photons transformed to ordinary photons) define a central element both in the communications from sensory organs to brain and to magnetic body and from magnetic body to biological body. At the level of body the communications would be practically instantaneous.

  4. Even in Earth length scale the time taken by EEG photons to travel from biological body to the corresponding layear of the magnetic body would still be be of order .1 seconds and the experiments of Libet demonstrate among other things that our sensory data is a fraction of second old. This has nothing to do with the conduction velocity of nerve pulses. The purpose of nerve pulses would be quite different: they would create fundamental memory representations and the model for this is based on DNA as topological quantum computer vision.

    Explaining this would however require TGD based view about memory as 4-D perception: causal diamonds are 4-D objects and our conscious experience is always about 4-D space-time region. For sensory perception the scale of this region is .1 seconds. For the perceptions that we call memories the scale is often years or even decades. Our conscious experience is 4-dimensional. Also our motor actions are essentially 4-dimensional: moment of consciousness replaces 4-D world (or quantum superpositions of them) with a new one: also our geometric past is changed in every moment of consciousness. This view resolves many puzzles related to memory but time is far from mature for the revolution. My hope is that the talks of Time conference could open the minds of at least some young colleagues.

  5. The communications with light velocity make possible feedback from brain to sensory organs making possible the building of standardized mental images by using the virtual sensory input from brain to create a charicature. Our brain would be an artist using primary sensory input as a raw material.

3. Kublai Khan's problem and three more surprises

Eagleman tells about the problem of emperor Kublai Khan. At that time people did not have internet and being a head of an empire of the size of Asia posed many problems. Kublai Khan used emissars travelling around the empire and bringing news about what happened. The problems was the correct integration of these data: the news about ending of some local war somewhere could arrive before the news telling that it had begun! Brain is faced with a similar problem. When the television came, one of the big problems was thought to be the synchronization of pictures and sound. It however turned out that brain takes care of this problem if the picture and sound to be associated with each other are withing 80 milliseconds. The moment of subjective time has this duration.

That we live in past was the first surprise of neuroscience already discussed. Eagleman tells about three more big surprises of neuroscience.

3.1. Time perception recalibrates

The brain must build a logical story about sensory data coming through different sensory channels. To achieve this time perception recalibrates. When one comes from bright sunlight to a dim room, the response function of retina gets slower. This does not however happen at the level of conscious experience. A simple test is a sequence of button clicks causing a flash of light. Experimenter can cheat the subject person by producing the light flash with a delay. Surprisingly, the subject person notices nothing. What is even more surprising that when one adds to the sequence of click-flash pairs an odd-ball for which flash is not delayed, the flash is experienced to take place earlier than clicking! Again a direct evidence for the TGD prediction that our perceptive field is 4-dimensional.

In this kind of situation the natural conclusion of subject person would be that it was not me who did the click. Some other agent caused the flash whereas my own attempt fails. Eagleman suggests that schizophrenia might be a disorder of time perception. Person would attribute his own thoughs sometimes heard as internal voices to some external subjects since the time order is pathological. Maybe. What is known that schizophrenics have very sharp sensory perception which cannot be cheated and that there might be no re-calibration. Eagleman talks about temporal inflexibility. This is of course just a suggestion as Eagleman emphasizes. I am not enthusiastic about this kind of interpretation: the bicameral views of Jaynes fit much better with the idea that magnetic body uses biological body as sensory receptor and motor instrument.

3.2. Time is not one thing

Time perception is much more complex than one might think: it involves many aspects such as duration, simultanety, flicker rate, time ordering. What brain does is the analysis of the sensory imput, and its reconstruction from the resulting small pieces. This is very much what is done in the processing of the raw sound (and also pictures) in movies. This applies also to time perception. In TGD framework also the feedback from brain is essential and basic communications would take place using light. Nerve pulse patterns would serve quite different purpose and are also hopelessly slow for building the percept.

3.3. The rate of time flow correlates with the rate of neural metabolism

There is large number of findings supporting the few that the experienced rate for the flow of subjective time correlates with the rate of neural metabolism and therefore with the intensity of consciousness.

a) Slowing down of the subjective time

Slowing down of subjective time flow is familiar to anyone. This can happen in troublesome situation or in so called flow state. Interestingly, also in very boring situations (say waiting for some-one to come) the same can happen. From my own experience I would say that the slowing down of subjective time characterizes very intense conscious experiences involving intense concentration. But why it would occur when you are bored: perhaps just because you are so intensely conscious about how boring your life is just now. You are not drowsy: you are inpatient and irritated.

Various explanations have been proposed. The proposal that the slowing down of time is analogous to the slowing down of the magnetic tape reducing the frequencies of sounds fails. Another explanation could be in terms of increased time resolution and also I have proposed this explanation. This explanation was tested.

Eagleman did an experiment which could be also seen as a tongue-in-cheek variant of Galileo's famous experiment in which he dropped various objects from the tower or Pisa and measured the time of fall and observed that it does not depend on the weight of the material object. Eagleman dropped subject persons instead of stones!

First of all Eagleman constructed an instrument which he calls perceptive chronometer producing random sequence of digits. In the simplest situation only single digit appeared alternatively as its positive or negative. As the rate of digits exceeds certain critical rate -presumably rather near to 12.5 Hz under normal circumstances- it becomes impossible to distinguish between subsequent digits: one sees only single fuzzy digit. The critical duration for the digit defines a natural unit of subjective time. The idea is to calibrate the rate of the chronometer in such a manner that the subject person is not able to distinguish between digits but that only a small reduction of the digit rate makes this possible. In this kind of situation it is enough to make the person scared and see whether he becomes able to distinguish between subsequent digits.

What Eagleman wanted to test was whether this time resolution increases when a person is really scared. If so, the subjective time measured using this critical unit would be longer in scaring situations. The method of really scaring was ingenious: drop the person from quite high a tower! During the free fall the person first found the critical time resolution of his visual perception which became the time unit used to measure the time of fall. The rate for Person reported his time resolution in two cases: when another person was falling and during own fall. The resolution increased during own fall: the falling time was estimated to be about 36 per cent longer for own falling down using the resolution as a unit.

What does this mean? It seems that the rate of the experienced time flow depends on the level of neural activity. In TGD framework the proper measure of subjective time is single quantum jump (recall that they form fractal hierarchy): this would be the tick of subjective clock. The larger the number of these ticks in a given interval of geometric time, the longer the experienced time duration is. More abstractly: the number of sub-CDs within CD representing mental images of self would provide a measure for the number of ticks during single CD.

Since metabolic energy is the necessary prerequite for the build-up of sensory and cognitive representations (mental images), the prediction is that the rate with which metabolic energy is used by brain correlates directly with the rate of the experienced time flow. When the subject person is falling from a tower, the rate of brain metabolism is higher than normally so that the observations can be understood in terms of the theory. As a matter fact, the correlation of the subjective duration with neural activity is well-known in neuroscience and Eagleman gives a long list of examples.

b) Odd ball effect

In this experiment the subject person perceives a series of figures. The figures are identical apart from some odd-balls between the repeating ones. The duration of odd-ball is experienced to be longer than that of the repeating picture although it is the same. The explanation would be that brain wants to save energy. Less metabolic energy for repeating items and nore metabolic energy for odd-balls, which literally wake-up the partially sleeping brain. The rate of neural metabolism correlating with the intensity of conscious experience (and number of quantum jumps per unit of geometric time/density of sub-CD:s within CD) seems to correlated directly with the experienced slowing down of time.

To sum up, the findings discussed by Eagleman are not easy to understand in the standard conceptual framework of neuroscience. The basic assumptions of TGD inspired theory of consciousness make the explanation trivial. In particular, the hierarchy of quantum jumps containing quantum jumps (of selves having sub-selves with subselves interpreted as mental images of self) and having as an imbedding space correlate the hierarchy of CDs within CDs, explains the correlation of neural metabolic energy consumption with the experienced rate for the flow of subjective time. The higher the density of sub-CDs within CD representing mental images, the higher the intensity of conscious experience,the higher the consumption of metabolic energy to build mental images, and the shorter the average time interval taken by given mental image and serving as a natural unit of subjective time and the longer the experienced duration of time interval.

For background see the chapter About the Nature of Time of "TGD Inspired Theory of Consciousness".


At 9:39 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

You compared TGD to a quantized GRT once. here is something similar.

At 10:30 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

identifying knot invariants (functions used to distinguish different knot types) by checking invariance under the moves has been common ever since. A recent shift toward taking the combinatorial approach more seriously, however, has led to the discovery of new types of generalized knots and links that do not correspond to simple closed curves in R3.
Like the complex numbers arising from missing roots of real polynomials, the new generalized
knot types appear as abstract solutions in knot equations that have no solutions among the classical geometric knots. Although they seem esoteric
at first, these generalized knots turn out to have interpretations such as knotted circles or graphs
in three-manifolds other than R3, circuit diagrams, and operators in exotic algebras. Moreover, classical knot theory emerges as a special case of the new generalized knot theory.
This diagram-based combinatorial approach to knot theory has revived interest in a related
approach to algebraic knot invariants, applying techniques from universal algebra to turn the
combinatorial structures into algebraic ones. The resulting algebraic objects,with names such as kei, quandles, racks, and biquandles, yield new invariants
of both classical and generalized knots and provide new insights into old invariants. Much like
groups arising from symmetries of geometric objects, these knot-inspired algebraic structures have connections to vector spaces, groups, Lie groups, Hopf algebras, and other mathematical structures.

Could these open numbers be primes, so that this would describe the structure of the hadronic string? Numbers are real entities through the link to fundamental constants?

At 3:09 PM, Anonymous Orwin O'Dowd said...

The squid itself is terrified of being captured by Atlanta wielding a knot-net, and is trying to abstract as a D-brane. Something to remember about squids: they were taken to be essentially evil and utterly cold, as in the ironic heart of Dante's Inferno. So the blessed primes must represent minimal thermal energies working down from the rotation of the hydrogen atom, ie electron, to the least murmer of the gluon plasma. Schroedinger did remark on the effective coldness of DNA, sustained by negentropy. This yields least significant differences in the metabolic load dilating cerebral moments. Surprisingly least, to the conventional mind, but since minimal thermal energies are rotations, you also have a geometry in angular velocities scaling in the relativistic well.

At 3:15 PM, Blogger Stephen Crowley said...

Orwin gets the prize for today's most obscure riddle ridden blog post :) Now if you will kindly provide your GPS coordinates... but.. that's only 1 kind of location...

At 7:39 PM, Anonymous said...

Yes. Orwin made a marvelous contribution! I didn't understand a word but "the metabolic load dilating cerebral moment";-) kicked my soul in vibration: this is what pure poetry does!

These knot theory news are exciting. Knots in general 3-manifolds are easy to imagine. Also circuits as generalized knots. But other algebraic knots... What they could be?

In twistor approach only planar Feynman graphs are discussed. Nonplanar diagrams containing crossing lines are not considered. This is a serious drawback.

Planar diagrams are like diagrams assigned to un-knots if one forgets the branchings at vertices not possible for the ordinary knots. The non-planar Feynman diagrams are very much analogous to knot diagrams obtained by projecting knot to plane so that one indeed obtains crossing lines.

The construction recipes for knot invariants mean that one gradually transforms the knot to trivial one by forcing knot strand through the strand below or above it: a variant of problem solving by sword taught by Alexander the Great also to mathematicians ;-). There is no need to teach this to physicists.

This brings to my mind my earlier posting in which I proposed that there could exist a similar procedure leading from non-planar Feynman diagrams to planar ones and allowing to express non-planar amplitudes in terms of planar ones. This would make it possible to extend twistor program to arbitrary Feynman diagram without assuming the large N limit (N=3 in QCD) aas approximation. Maybe mathematicians who have introduced the notion of algebraic knot have something like this in mind.

The above piece of text from Ulla mentions that c3-D ircuits could be seen as generalized knots. Maybe one could regard also non-planar Feynman diagrams as generalized knots. Quantum numbers flowing along lines could make mean coloring of the strands: for braids the coloring is well-known possibility. Branchings at vertices make them something more general than knot.

Scattering amplitudes as generalized knot invariants would be an extremely powerful constraint to the mathematical form of generalized Feynman diagrams.

At 11:11 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

Non-Euclidean space? You have it linked to c.c.?

At 11:59 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

Deformation of CP2 with a vanishing Weinberg angle, phi.? Supergravity?

At 6:05 AM, Anonymous Orwin O'Dowd said...

Time moves on....

1 The cone puzzle was posed by Henri Bergson, philosopher of time, back when Hertz was making waves.

2 12.5 Hz is nowhere as a frame rate: TV requires 50, PC monitors 60 or more, and gamers look higher. So perceptual continuity is retinal, not cerebral! Cerebral timing is mirrored in music, to 8 or 12 divisions of a beat.

3 Option Freud passed over: "the *drang of an instinct....may represent demand for work" ie metabolic load or complexity.

4 if the complexity is due to prime divisors that's division rings in Legandre polynomials, which can get inaccessible... like memories!

5 Max Plank Institute finds regulators of genes expressing odor receptors:

Which evolve with the coirtex and a distinctive redundancy in the genome.

6 Knots to circuits to Cirquent Calculus: arXiv: 0709.1308v3

At 6:06 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

More knots, in Nature

At 6:32 AM, Blogger ThePeSla said...


Interesting you and apparently many others are interested now in knot theory. It is about time they generalized these things- and why did it take so long to begin to do so.

But none of these terms in the text or comments or links do justice to the concepts we are trying to express here.

What is a blackout but the alcohol in the brain not letting one set down that sort of neuro memory- but are they conscious? We know now that some in deep coma are in a sense conscious so how will the experience time?

My theme today was the Fibonacci numbers. In them I realized that most of the physicists posting on the issue of superluminal neutrinos as if imaginary particles have no deep understanding of complex numbers when it comes to some path or world line.

I am way beyond such simple extensions of space as the usual way to generalize dimensions and knots, twistors and overly simplified Feynman diagrams. One cannot live on rumors of physics especially if the case is way obsolete and a dead end, Ulla. By Trinity I assume you meant something like Kea recently stated about the neoplatonists- that is if there is any enduring structure or geometry and numbers to things.

1995 was a good year to take up the frontiers to Consciousness as the DNA structure discoverer did. But we have made little progress since then apparently- the Emperor will have no clothes if they do not grow and adjust to the current issues and near future ones of the new physics.

Why remake the wheel without searching the work of others? Why trust anything on the net?


At 8:25 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

The basic aspect of trinity is 'religious'. Kea just relate to mythology. It is one way to put a frame around what you are talking about. She ties up to Carbon, what is interesting. Trinity is also important for the elements, seen in Platonic solides. There is a bit to that yet, but no reason not to try.

Matti has often explained his theory is a theory of trinity. Spacetime, numbers, consciousness, as instance interwowen into each other. Trinities everywhere. Knots express primes among other things. It is not that I have not been interested, in knots, I have not the background needed for them.

We are so confused by what we call 'reality' also you, PeSla. Especially you, maybe, although we try to show you. We have all a bad habit to make simple things complex. Especially this is true in biology, my field. It has taken an enormous amount of ponderings to get things more straight, and Matti has been of big help in this process. You cannot any longer come with old pointings, and say 'this is the truth', because I simply don't buy them any more. What is the real TRUTH is more difficult to find out, if something like that even exist, which I doubt. So nothing I say can be taken for being the whole Truth, only bits of Truth are here to build with.

Neutrinos are imaginary, as are relativistic masses. The real input comes often from the 'other' or unreal side, as Matti has shown with the DM-control.

One reason we have bad success is that we ask the wrong questions.

Matti said once that there are very little work worth considering, and I understand what he meant. That is one reason he has so few references. But I think we must find the path through the djungle of confused results, so we have to search the web. The endpoint is Life, always. It is frustrating, yes, but it also learn me a lot. Most of all this resembles laying a giant puzzle.

From what you said I guess you didn't like my trial about TGD? Maybe you know too much? I thought of a young people, trying to absorb TGD. I know how difficult it is :) hopelessly interwoven. I try to show one path into it. I take numerous examples, and there will certainly be mistakes, also in my own understanding of things. Then I hope someone will tell me. Most of all I hope Matti want to cooporate with answers, if needed, but he do as he wants to. He has no time for me. He maybe too think it is a bad idea? I'll make some of the 16 lessons, then we'll see. But I don't want to discuss my trial HERE.

I have an old wound, and this touches it, so it is difficult for me. It is fate, maybe?

At 10:08 AM, Blogger ThePeSla said...


Did you see this- my how we can play with some real things and do unexpected things?

"The endpoint is life, always" How poetic and heartfelt (still I am not sure we have communicated or understood each other.)

trial- sorry do not understand the context of the word. But yes we should not just point to things- in the consciousness questions in particular- our instruments but crude tools that indicate.

I did think this last post may relate to the Dark measurements so in that sense these are distinct and yet "real".

It is amazing how much in the standard language I do not know how to say or know about with the work done on primes and fibonacci numbers from my crude search today.

Knots are prime- not that is an interesting comment to ponder. But to me knots are rather trivial and vague, now. Something I thought one would have to be around since birth to know- and something more intricate than a description by one sided spaces.

I know Matti feels as we all should overwhelmed at times by the 1100 or so regions of the maths but I would have him go a little farther, to where no one can be cited before yet is close to a new truth. After all, for me at this point in the philosophy of it all- the great trinity is Pitkanen, Shepherd, and Otto as primary- but Trinities rise and fall.

Thank you for the reply.

The PeSla

At 4:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I left a comment on an earlier blog post of yours recommending researching the kappa-opioid receptor.

One potent agonist of the kappa-opioid receptor is Salvinorin-A found in the Salvia Divinorum plant.

A rough list of effects from ingesting this substance:

1. Becoming objects
2. Visions of various two-dimensional surfaces, films and membranes.
3. Revisiting places from the past, especially childhood
4. Loss of the body and/or identity.
5. Various sensations of motion, or being pulled or twisted by forces of some kind.
6. Uncontrollable hysterical laughter.
7. Overlapping realities. The perception that one is in several locations at once.

I think there are TGD-inspired explanations for these effects. I'm not the right person to explan them though.

At 7:54 PM, Anonymous Orwin O'Dowd said...

This is like Dalton's dream!

Surely Feynman diagrams are constrained to act in sheets?
In this view I conjecture:
Kirschoff' theorem of electrical circuits is to Feynman diagrams/QED as Hodge diamonds are to sympletic knots and a new YM theory.

I can't help thinking of color charges swirling or twisting on the surface of a proton, like the red spot on Jupiter, gas giant. That means spherical geometry, which is where CS Peirce took the logic of relations! That brings in relational QM which has the precise observables, and runs with loop gravity. Also Poincare group gives operational df of a particle...

At 11:02 PM, Blogger Ulla said...


Yes, I looked it up, thx.

What have you smoked? is a common question when we want to degrade someone. Still we use those same receptors every day, and it is only the frequency in usage that are changed by drugs. They invoke on homeostasy, that is the basic ground energetic level, and stir it up. In a way stesses us, and some have shown we create a new higher basic metabolic level by artificial drugs (allostasy).

Enlightment is to touch the ground energy level. Usually we must then be very relaxed, as immidiately after we have waked up, in dreams etc. A good way is to block out our senses, decrease the other receptors. Most difficult is to block out our thoughts, the 'babble-machine' in our head that most efficiently takes us away from the energetic ground level. To be able to shut off that machine is the easiest way to enlightment and happiness. Artificial drugs just make a shortcut and disturb the circuits?

Enlightment-people talk of being in the present, so time is most important. This is maybe as if at the zero energy point was a gate (interfering point) to another parallell reality, another manifold perpendicular to our common reality. A parallell universe? This was explained in my earlier video link :) and also why I suggested an quantized entropy, like the quantized negentropy. Just as a thought.

In quantumbiology that parallell universe is Quantum world, interfering with our nerves and resonating with the body. The dance metaphore, using the knots as endpoints.

If we have all this built in, it is meant to be used, why? We are made to live in both realities, so why dismiss one of those realities? The same fate are psychosis patients facing, their reality are dismissed. Schizophrenics are best treated by taking their reality for real. Hallucinations are real for the one experiencing them. Yoga is usually said to be dangerous just because it can bring us to face that other kind of reality too fast, and get us into a psychosis.

This same parallell universe/quantum world is used in religious experiencies. There is nothing different in them, except the name. When we experience we meet God, as in Persingers experiments, we really do :) This tells maybe more about God than about us :)

Of course this is much like TGD :)

At 11:20 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

PeSla, The last sentence could have been unsaid?

For me as a biologist the Life is endpoint, and I also think for physicists it should be. And for math people too, but they have more free forms, usually. Math people are instead forgetting about the constraints (tools) too often?

Biology is a novel field for physics. Already there functioning. Biology tells much about what solutions are chosen and which are not, so the most important experimental machine is still almost untouched. No LHC is needed for that. Sophisticated experiments, yes.

Biophysics is the fastest growing research area for now?

At 11:27 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

The easiest way to explain the Trinity is to say it unifies Math, Biology and Physics? Names are irrelevant? None is more important than the other?

At 4:03 AM, Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous,

the list about the effects of Salvinorin-A k is really interesting. The visions about 2-D surfaces are especially interesting. II have not used Salvinorin-A nor any other drugs but items 1-5 are familiar to me from a state of consciousness which I have while sleeping. In this state of consciousness I am convinced that I am awake but as a skeptic I have often tried to perform all kinds of tests to check whether the experience is real or not but cannot decide. Then I wake up.

Since I sleep badly, making about 10 toilet visits during night, one might blame kappa-opioids for why I am teasing web audience with TGD;-)!

The notion of magnetic body would make it reasonably easy to explain many of these experiences. Sensations of motion would be due to the actual motion of magnetic body relative to biological body. Moving train illusion is exampled of everyday experience. OBEs could be quite generally interpreted in terms of bodily experiences assignable to magnetic body. OBEs can be produced by disorders on some cortical areas and the explanation would be simple: the ordinary sensory input would not contribute and only the contribution of magnetic body would remain.

When I wake up I sometimes feel quite concretely how I contract from something much bigger involving also the room in which I sleep to my own body. Also in the state just before falling asleep I have often felt the sudden snaps made by the wooden house in severe cold as very concrete sensations in my own extended body. I spend most of the dream time in childhood and youth as sensory perceiver but somehow at the level of thoughts I am also conscious about the recent. Perhaps one might say that I am simultaneously in two places and times.

At 4:11 AM, Anonymous said...

Still about strange very spiritual dreams. Two nights ago I had two very beautiful dreams based on same theme. I was going to somewhere but had money only to one-way railway ticket. I tell only about the second dream.

In the first scheme I was first walking around railway bridge familiar from my childhood and wondering why such a place was ornamented with beautiful icon like paintings and ceramics. Why some-one would have exhibition of spiritual art in a place in which no one visits?

In the next scheme I was in train and walking inside it and admiring these artworks. The train was still running over the bridge.

Then I had left the train at the end of the railway bridge. I saw a large crowd of my relatives. They looked very friendly but did not seem to perceive me.

I realized that I had with me a very strange, weird looking fellow: 2 meters tall and very lean. This peculiar fellow regarded me as his friend. I thought that he is my childhood friend from age about 7 years but wondered why he looked so different now. This fellow took me from hand in very gentle manner and asked whether we could walk to the graveyard. We decided to do so. We were like two little boys going to some strange and perhaps disquieting place hand in hand.

Then I woke up and realized what one-way ticket symbolized. Death! This fellow was death! Not at all the grim reaper with scythe but a faithful old friend with almost childlike appearance! My relatives had come to a funeral- my funeral! This was really humorous. There was absolutely no feeling of fear. I felt happy and hilarous and wanted to laugh.

At 4:26 AM, Anonymous said...

About uncontrollable hysterical laughter mentioned in the kappa-opioid list. I was for more than week in hospital for some time ago and in the same room there also other patients.

One of them was 80-year old man who had suffered brain infarct and was partly paralyzed. His snoring was really horrible. I had however to fight to not start uncontrolled laughing as I associated it with a story by finnish humorous writer Huovinen in which snoring made the me of the story almost mad. Kappa-opioids?

Next night however this old man himself saw a dream which made him laugh. He must have experienced in his dream something absolutely amusing. This laughter lasted for half an hour and it was so intense that I thought that he will die: I was really afraid this laughter makes breathing impossible. Kappa-opioids?

Also strange personality changes happened. In his dreams this 80-year old paralyzed man suddenly talked like a young and very determined and aggressive man. Kappa-opioids again?

At 12:05 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

I was on a funeral, one of the new kind where people lay down flowers in silence. The silence was important to hinder noise. Just small music. Her (the dead woman) near relatives sat there behind her. They went to her with their flowers. Suddenly I saw her laughing, dancing like a young girl, with her hair in thick 'knots' and old fashioned clothes. She sent her love to her kids and grandchildren, to all of us sitting there. It was a very warm atmosphere. She died of cancer.

I had a dream. A man talked to me, said he was ok, he was so well taken care of (by a kind woman). He enjoyed life with his and her kids (6 kids) so that there were many kids (10). He pointed this out many times. What is so special with number ten? I have tried to look. Or maybe I looked for wrong number and it was 6 that was the important one? Six and four. Quantum matter and God? Everything done?

Then he laid down in a deep and brown bed of wood, a strange sofa I thought. He wanted to sleep, pleased with himself. No, I said, no, I was angry, disappointed, no. He used my words, I shouted, dam you, bastard, what is so special with HER, you have nothing in common. But there was nothing I could do to it. She was like a loved one. She smiled and used small talk to me.

Afterwards I realized what kind of dream I had. She was Death. How strange to come like a loved one. And the man was pleased to give up his independence. It was an illusion, honored high by him, brought to him by fear.

I was meeting a shadow Death, flied through a tunnel of steel with euphoria and bliss. No pain. Then I looked back, saw my little son, and turned back. I couldn't go.

There is nothing wrong with Death, he is as natural as Life. But Life is special. Death is no solution, just an endpoint. What we do in Life is important, the piece and love we make, what we do after Death is important, like sowing for next period of Life. Strange that Death often is pictured as an Harvester.

At 5:24 PM, Anonymous Orwin said...

Ulla, there's a huge system of astrocytes on the supply side of neurons, cells named for their star-like form, which makes them seem like the firmament of our destinies in the microcosm. There is a beautiful old language of morphology which has very Platonic associations: I wish someone could piece it together again.

Some now speak of astrocytes as the vehicle of consciousness, or ions in their metabolism. Alberty at MIT Chem. says ion concentrations determine the direction of biochemical reactions - so its not an input-output system but an ecosystem riding ionic tides.

At 12:18 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

Ye, astrocytes are important, and actually very important in my research of meridians. Their actions are very complex. Becker showed their effects (DC-current) actually determined our active consciousness, but the consciousness terms must first be set. There is today a huge mess. Matti has convinced me the essence of consciousness comes from outside, and astrocytes or connective tissue is only transforming it, one way is resonance. This is what we call unconsciousness, and when it triggers activity (through noise, negentropy) in our brain, we call it consciousness. We lay too much importance to the brain, usually.

At 12:20 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

Links would be valuable.

At 1:57 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I thought of a TGD-inspired notion.

"Negentropic capacity"

The capacity one possesses for the application of mental energy.

Could anxiety-disorders be a side effect of high mental energy? Overanalytical, obsessive, etc.

Too much mental energy? Or wrong distribution of mental energy?

At 2:26 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I am teasing web audience with TGD;-)!"

So you ARE imparting us with esoteric knowledge. We are lucky to receive because we have open minds and are not swayed by societal pre-conceptions regarding "crackpots."

Should we seriously consider the NATURALLY-OCCURING Salvinorin A compound a characteristic that was derived from random evolutionary dynamics?

The father of psychopharmacology Louis Lewin, called vision inducing drugs 'phantastica.'

Your personal anecdotes seem relevant. Since the Kappa-Opioid receptor (KOR) is a part of the opioid receptor family, it has a role in pain. Society and the establishment science projects that these experiences are dysphoric and therefore, they are an "unwanted" side-effect. Spiritual insight and journey isn't always "euphoric" and anyways, "euphoria" and "dysphoria" are subjective notions.

PERHAPS, given that the KORs are part of the pain modulation family, they serve as a "psychomimetic pain regulator."

At 3:29 AM, Anonymous Orwin O'Dowd said...

Mylie Cyrus did an official pirate video smoking Salvia in a bong...

Salvia divinorum is the queen of the crop of a large class of herbs rich in terpenes, which are all about symmetry-breaking in carbon rings. So they flux carbohydrates, thinning your blood, and flush your liver and kidneys. Great for loosening knotted or frozen muscles, which are risky, and a natural source of anxiety.

The herbs grow in the Mediterranean, with the olives, and the demand from health-conscious consumers is causing a run on agricultural credit....

Meanwhile Dr Michio Kaku at Big Think, TIME #1 Web Site, is in blank denial about superliminal neutrenos! Claiming a 60ft GIS location error! I can just see this spreading over the whole new physics, and contrarians running off with all the applications, and Japan pulling the US into deflation.

At 3:58 AM, Anonymous said...

Salvia divinorum is classified as entheogen. Not a surprise of course. It is amusing that Kaku who is ready to believe even the weirdest multiverse stuff refuses to take seriously effective super-luminality!

To my opinion these drugs are only kind of contact to other forms of consciousness. Aromatic carbon rings are present in almost all biologically important molecules, also in DNA. But not in alcohol.

It might be that aromatic rings define an essential aspect of being a psycho-active drug. Magnetic flux tubes with large value of hbar are associated with DNA rings. Perhaps they are associated also with hallucinogens and for large enough hbar could connect the user telepathically even to distant parts of cosmos. Didn't Terence Mc Kenna propose that the effect of hallucinogens associated with some mushrooms creates contacts with civilizations at distant corners of cosmos?

Already 10 Hz EEG resonances corresponds to Earth scale and time scale of life to light life: something like hundred light years. For transpersonal levels of consciousness the distance scale could be scale of galaxy or even longer.

At 4:53 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

This begins to be highly interesting.

symmetry-breaking in carbon rings. So they flux carbohydrates, thinning your blood, and flush your liver and kidneys. Great for loosening knotted or frozen muscles, which are risky, and a natural source of anxiety.

The opposite molecule creating the flux is methyl. In biology this is seen in methylation as opposed to acetylation. I still don't understand so much of the process, and the question is under investigation of Radoslav Bozov, so I can't tell so much. We have discussed a lot. This follow the Einsteinian equations and tension/knot dance very well.

Knots in DNA is one piece of this. My guess is that certain processes creates secondary coherence in the carbon flux. I suggested this to Barry Carter, but surely he didn't understand me. Ormus is doing exactly this, I guess. Cancer is seen as the maximum decoherence, a creation of a new subsystem?

Every kind of molecule has an impact on us. Food is highly interactive, not to talk of bacterias in our body. Fe is one of the worst (amplify the resonance)? Our body also creates these molecules for the regulation of the entropic/negentropic balance (homeostasis). We must be at the egg to keep our sensitivity.

"Negentropic capacity"

This is already in the NMP. Emotions (=their energy) can be assimilated as driving force (=resonance) or they can be left with their energy oscillating freely creating chaos and uncertainty in the "generating processes" (choice) as noise in brain. They can then be amplifyed (panic, pain) or just give higher energy (anxiety?) as a readiness (potential?) for a choice not so usual. I see this as the potential for free will. Compare to the Higgs mechanism.

Choices are always guided by emotions. If there is no emotions we can have no decisions.

This follows exactly the personal CD-lightcone and Lorentz transformations seen as uncertainty. Sometimes there happen that we experience a very short time objectively as lasting very long. Then we are at the long side (outer side) of the cone. WE act in an unwanted way (eu-, dysphoria?)

This can be true also on population level.

At 5:05 AM, Blogger Ulla said... metabolic activity

At 3:19 PM, Anonymous Orwin said...

Methylation can act back on the genome in what is called epigenesis: life up against the constraints tries switching the program. Cancer is like a rogue epigenesis, breaking the program.

Opposite is acetylcholine, facilitating touch, facial recognition, social cueing: life flowing out into possibility.

Underlying the polarity could be the entropy-viscocity relation in superstrings...

At 11:02 PM, Blogger Ulla said...


But usually only methylation isn't enough for epigenetics, but you need something else that is transferred over the generations like DNA (hence the -genetics name). Methylation is usually inactivation, acetylation is activation, then there are some more stages too, like phosphorylation. A quasic grid. Kinases are one group that do this, interesting in cancer. And telomers are very interesting quasic structures important for the regulation, together with the quasic islands in the genome. Freely moving quasic DNA fragments in blood is also part of the system. You see, genome is a structure of 6 and 4 :) These would function as knots? In TGD knots are endpoints of strings, which can be open in case of prime, but the hadron makes them finite? Hence the possibility for DM-regulation.

At 11:07 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

Interestingly acetylcholine is functioning on both autonomous and perifer nerves, and is like and 'knot' for emotions. A drive.

But acetylation is much more than that.

At 11:33 PM, Anonymous Orwin said...

Ulla, I realize I'm not up-to-date in genetics, with new base pairs etc. But I found the spindle, which is an old image from the Greek Fates, known in the Unani Medicine for spindle poisons, which wash out with terpenes (Black Seed)! The viscocity polarity is very clear, with tar in tobacco, resin in hashish/cannibis, heavy oil opoids, all restricting, numbing, like methyl suppressors. There must of course be metabolic (anabolic/catabolic)channels mediating the polarity.

So here's a quick theory-sketch, from what I've learned here:

p-adic numbers were introduced by Hensel in 1897 as a way of working with power series, and the theorems we have for them don't support much else, only a link to Bernoulli numbers. At the time it was higher-order terms in electromagnetism that were of interest, and Freud siezed on the quadrupole moment as an image of "psychical energy". But also insisted on a group of neurons, which was never explained.

M-theory, the second wave of superstring theories, offers an entropy-viscocity relation, but is said to touch reality only at the low-entropy limit. That's not much to go on, but we do have from the squid story and Schroedinger in What is Life? a sense that this is low temperature in a structural rather than kinetic sense.

Here's a second conjecture: internal to hadrons is a Bose condensate or quark-gluon superfluid, in which the superparticles form symmetry-broken analogues of Cooper pairs in superconduction. Polymers allow their formation at higher kinetic temperatures, in the ligand field. And if that's not enough, G-protien signal channels link cells, like Freud's blessed groups. What this implies I really don't know. Matti?

The relation between temperature and parity remains unclear. Perhaps one must assume an Euler scale which is circular, with plasma and superfluids above infinity and below zero. Parity and temp. magnitude thus intersect, which is unexpected, but predicts (!) a 4th range, which is the warm dense matter in the Earth's core (next up after LHC, at ESRF!) resonating with the far X-ray background to produce the periodic anomalies. Ie Schroedinger's structural temperature measures against pressure, as temp x density.

That explains everything!!!!

At 11:54 PM, Anonymous Orwin said...

Matti, whatever they say, the mathematicians' l-adic Etale theory now has a full dual in Hodge theory:


which opens up the Hodge diamond for cone analysis.

Bergson roisted Freud in the totemism debate and ran off with his Nobel - but only for literature!

The ESRF ( promises a new era with less fundamentalism.

At 12:37 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another very common effect of Salvinorin A is the feeling of strong pressure being exerted upon oneself from above. Hmm...

What do you all think about my conjucture that Salvinorin A serves as a sort of psychomimetic pain-regulator?

At 8:08 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

I don't know what to say about all this.

Anon, the feeling of strong pressure can be an inhibition of the nerve system. possibly together with an activation in sense of higher sensitivity (from above pressure). It is known that nerves have a quite small functional amplitude.

fluxtubes are regulating the viscosity (gel-sol changes indicating a phase shift), but it is probably an effect. Pollacs book would give an overview. You scetch now a picture of the hadron anatomy, which I have tried to figure out too. I think your model is too simple. This is linked to the self-experience. What is the self as form of longlasting entangled states in an hadron? If we compare to CP2 spinors they have an angle (Weinbergs?) that can be changed and deformed, collapsed (to 2D?) in a sense, as in the measurement. Maybe Matti can give a better answer. He has a term laid to the Dirac equation for this measurement. There are experiments casting doubts over the 'collapsing'.

Metabolic channels? Compare to the tensors. There are 'channels' making this viscosity changing easier, usually mediated by electrical synapses. But to have that you must have another signal before, either as an 'order' like in negative energy signals, or a signal transmission not seen (=dark?). Maybe the readiness potential is exactly about this, probably the first model. In nerve growth there are special 'electrical molecules'. The 'channel' must then be piezoelectric, = almost instant DC-current (= the polarity?)? But still much slower (about 350ns) than light, which also is important as signal in living tissue. There are special (chiral?) light channels.

GCPR receptors are very common, and interesting in that there are no molecule transmission over the membrane. The 'signal molecule' just achieve an amplification via a second messinger system, making this a true fluxtube system. The 'flux' only achieve a folding change. Then, also the folding is a largely unknown process. Matti has a model also of this.

Almost every medicine/drug goes through the amplifying chain of GCPR's, probably also true drugs. A very small signal get a big response.

Negentropy-entropy can also be seen as a viscosity change? And interestingly Freud have analogies in brain structure changes and modelling.

I must point out that this is my picture, and Matti maybe has another view on things. Also on the metabolism I cannot say much due to ongoing research by Radoslav. The molecule size also seems to be important. A new field of 'small molecule medicine' is evolving. This would suit the Ormus.

I don't know about the images of Greek Fates, link?

At 8:46 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

Does this give some hints about how the flux tubes go?

At 8:51 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

At 1:49 PM, Blogger Ulla said... Chromosome centromeres are inherited epigenetically

The histone protein CenH3 (a variant) is both necessary and sufficient to trigger the formation of centromeres and pass them on from one generation to the next.

Histones are important in methylation/acetylation. Kinetochores prefer the “silent” DNA sections of the chromosome

According to their findings, both the organisation of the chromosomes and epigenetic marks determine the location where a kinetochore and, eventually, a centromere can form.

At 4:05 PM, Anonymous Orwin said...


another signal... negentropy:

Yes! I was surprised again to notice that afterwards:

Thinking about Dante and the squid, I recalled Atalanta Fugiens, an alchemical classic from the C17, and the obscure root of fugacity, which marks all that ideal gas thermodynamics can't tell you.

PV = nRT, R the gas 'constant'
P/R = nT/V

This is fugal pressure, real pressure if you have the real R, specific to the molecule.

Years ago I found:

P.ln P = Gibbs free energy density,

which I called work capacity, the initiative or action of the organism, as a true Shannon information or negentropy. Depends on the Zipf distribution of molecules which is highly characteristic of a species (fact important in forensics).

So the capacity to survive is *not the psychical individual/soul/self! And the question of Anonymous is still harder to answer.

I framed M-theory as a theory of the ligand field because QM does not give that (chemistry is still discovered, not predicted) so protein folding is not solved. But that's not everything: chelation or dipole bonding is a whole new concern, and acts on the surface, where immune system recognizes (!) friend/foe, defining self.

Of course dipoles actually have quadropole overtones etc. so here's another field for p-adic analysis, now with self as oberver....

At 10:53 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

This scales down to the question 'What is chemistry?'

The chemical 'bonds' are only metaphores for something else. As instanse hydrogen bonds are very badly understood.

Life is created out of small molecules, most important are C-N, H-O. If we look at the chart of frequency of atoms we notice one thing. Life must have been created very early, before ordinary heavy matter, even? A small molecule soup? Maybe the right question is 'How can matter be regarded as not living?'

The redox reaction seen as an entropic reaction is interesting, debated also by Mae Ho (in burning water etc.). The C:N is an compression-extension pair, like a yes or no, but this is secondary. The very most essential element to Life is H and O, water, and water is a very strange thing, almost living in itself.

The 'surviving' drive as Self is very useful, but what is Self? Can Self be the Singularity? This is the usual picture for a God, but is it true? Has there been a Big Bang as is thought? All I can see is that this is a very problematic picture. God must have a wife?

Self-organization as observer is a useful metaphore. The observer needs an object outside himself, a surrounding, which is at minimum a duality. It can also be a monopole, two ends of himself, Yin/yang, like the 'M-matrix pic'. Self look at himself in a mirror, but this is usually regarded to require consciousness. What is consciousness then? A result of measurement (cognition). Can a mesurement have many outputs?

To talk of psychomimetic effect or soul is ad hoc structure. It must be defined.

At 4:20 AM, Anonymous Orwin said...

When I looked for observer space I found it in Wikibin. Binned. But immune capacity exists, generating identities and antibodies. The neutral drift debate in evolution cuts in here, with sense that viruses are the large source of variability in life, themselves subject to selection, driving symbiosis and assimilation to the genome!

Yes, 'mutations' selected from viral noise! And this generated in turn by cosmic rays, the complex energy from space, ens astra of Paracelsus. Which implies that self/observer functions are at least complex, more credibly hypercomplex, with reserve capacity to select signal from noise.

The math here is filter theory, growing out of Boolean lattices. Again, we can't afford to ignore Peirce's topology of logic, stil less topology.

At 6:20 AM, Anonymous Orwin said...

The immune function is active and energy-intensive, and individuates the species potential in two steps: bioidentity marking a moment in the neutral drift/natural history; antibodies pacing personal history.

Mind emerges from reserve capacity as intelligence of immune defense. Reaching back into the physical foundation for reserve capacity in defense, life may tap the cosmic root of consciousness.

This would be in hypercomplex range, hence interest in octonions. Through all this higher natural history there is a differentiation of space-times, biological then psychical. I expect the multiverse notion to crash to earth in this range, with the pretentions of old physics.

At 8:47 AM, Blogger ThePeSla said...


I really enjoyed your paper, a classic of that view of psychology and of modern, existential and pragmatic philosophy.

But it is far from a science of consciousness (much like those here addressing absurdly low class hallucinogenic chemicals.

Now the immune function is not a bad idea, so too the inversion of cortex leadership with age. Not all is programmed to meet the demands of an immune system- something is left for the unexpected.

Consciousness is much more complicated than hypercomplex numbers, Boolean lattices, Peirce's three-ness of logical syllogisms and so on- or even the idea of viruses of which the same sequence may be virulent or not- why? Anyway, my take on cognition is now on the blog- if I may add to this delightful mind fest.

Elan vital and all that

The PeSla

At 9:42 AM, Anonymous Orwin said...

PeSla, lysis of viruses is a phase change, related to the unspiraling of DNA for transcription. The Shannon measure I gave above is transphase - I checked that.

Where the immune capacity individuates in two stages, mind integrates through hypnagogic continuity in the cicadian cycle, and subliminal adjustment of the inertial frame of action.

That's psychical space-time. Is that trivial? I don't quest for qualia, I'm not a Scholastic. I also won't denigrate a very fine creature like Salvia divinorum, in the ethnic practice approached as a soul-ally, with respect.

What interests me now is the transmodal phase inversion: in music, pitch tickles the ear, while beat is parsed centrally; in vision, the eye merges inertial moments or film frames, but colour-pitch, especially contrast, is resolved centrally, with object-form. Awareness is not attention.

Mind doesn't have much use for qualia - they're notional, traces on the scratch-pad of attention, and not the stuff of thought.

Which does leave art in a world of its own, with character and meaning.

At 10:42 AM, Anonymous Orwin said...

More in your orbit, PeSla, colour-values are parsed differently in different cultures. That's part of historical existence. With the politics of knowledge, which washes around us here.

But the multi-modal complexity of experience is a bit awesome to me, which takes us back to Eagleton's synesthesias. Or on to the metaphysical question: how does reality spawn so many flavours of space-time. Matti's next post has key evidence in view, and seems to throw up dimensions in the abstract, absolute degrees of freedom.

At 12:33 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

I don't comment these last comments other than saying that epigenetics are a immune system.

Antibodies are very interesting structures too. They clearly have consciousness and a Self.

Do you mean this?

PeSla, Your model of consciousness is confused, as for so many other. Consciousness is unlabeled, that is including unconsciousness, protoconsciousness etc. which in everyday language is said to be not conscious, meaning aware. I have pointed this out earlier too. Of course hallucinogens transfer consciousness, because they impact on the very same molecules that do in every case. The same transmitters. I guess this is the reason we have drug problems.

An antibody resembles an hadron in structure, and both are conscious beings = capacity to do measurements/quantum jumps. I am NOT talking of emotions nor intelligence which are something completely different. The most minute Self is in the Zero point. Does this make the whole Universe conscious?

Codes are matter, classical. They doesn't tell everything. Codes can make a 'tree' of meaning as hierarchial structures etc. One of the difficult questions are how a 2D code can code for a 3D world, or how spinors can code for our reality in so many dimensions (from the GUT theory as instanse). How are degrees of freedoms hidden/evolving? Emergence of gauge couplings, gluons etc. What are the structure of epiphenomens, how is it deduced? How can holism be created, so that the degrees of freedoms are growing?

At 2:18 PM, Anonymous Orwin said...

Thanx Ulla, that helps to know.

Its all too easy to rely on the old positivist hierarchy of sciences, but its deceptive. Reactivity as seen in tissues goes back to cells, and that is basis for sensations, including pain. My earlier thought was that consciousness is a symbiosis, emerging in corals, which host bacteria. As a signal-train/transduction that passes through an other.

At 3:32 PM, Anonymous Orwin said...

This is interesting again: reserve capacity for energy-intensive defense would be endosymbiosis of mitochondria. Then, in eukaryotes, circadian cycle constitutes biological space-time.

Without that, cells drift in metabolic phase-space, differentiating over energy-sources. But can scavenge protons with bacteriorhodospin, the basis of all transduction, so quark and wormhole complexity is always in signal!

With eukaryotes, scope for emergence of 5th dimension (AdS/CFT) by percolation through nuclear membrane. Percolation theory is now big, and has modular forms: arXiv:0905.1727v1

Then conjugation of cells crosses genomes, and doubles the complexity to reach the level PeSla demands! That is the dynamic of familiar Tree of Life evolution.

At 10:05 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

What is absolutely fascinating is that small organisms like bacterias often produce superpositions and act as superorganism. So there are no boundary. Also bacterias have no nuclear envelope. But superorganisms are not dependent on that (a new dimension). Also fish show the same, and human brains. Not even between humans are any absolute boundary. I have thought much on what purpose the boundary has and one is as a site for differentation, the feeling of a Self, and especially an Ego. What is the difference between self and ego? It is a huge difference. Self is inner, Ego is surroundings. Superorganisms are Ego's? Population is the individ. There is no talking Self?

So, if we think rationally all this talk of getting loose of the Ego is metaphysical B-S talk, but here Matti is of different mind.

In QM boundaries are important too, like topological defects, subsystems. As a 'memory' structure??? Memory is one of the unsolved questions too. Memory requires consciousness. Defects are seen also in non-living matter.

At 10:07 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

Rhodopsin is a very interesting molecule, conscious?

At 10:24 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

One more thing.
Immunity in the evolving of Life is a very interesting question. Immunity requires a Self. If we think that in the primordial soup was no boundaries, just groups of fluxtubes, then there came 'viruses' that were strong CD's. This would mean that immunity as a capacity to shield the Self, created these boundaries.

This acts also without Life?

In fact the cell membrane is just a fluidy surroundings of fat and some proteins. Why proteins in the fluid? Why must this fluid be carried of a net of microfibrills, the cell skeleton to function?

At 8:53 AM, Anonymous Orwin said...

The cell wall involves the largest molecule in metabolism, so the cost of repair is very high. The passageways are subtle, with electrodynamics affected by coenzymes in the matrix. Dark chocolate can deplete Co Q10 (death by chocolate!) but malt seems to prevent this (remember malted milk?). Molecules are ported by enzymes (active transport) so cell selects its constituents (I call this similative selection: assimilation/dissimilation).

It is striking that cell closure is endpoint of metabolism: how to get there? Is proto-life just RNA in a context that works for it (Stuart Kauffman's catalytic closure)? A kind of soil? Here you see the power of context, and I do see that mind develops as context of life:

Self is then the vehicle of instinct, vital for health and survival, which mattered to ancient sages (Jung knew nothing of them and got this back-to-front).

At 9:32 AM, Anonymous Orwin said...

The is a huge chapter of archaeology missing here, under the sign of 'celestial agriculture'. Ancients saw plants upside-down, eating the soil, but in a curious metaphor, hanging from the sky. Greg Retallack then found Greek temples distributed by soil types, with the gods then forming a firmament of soil horizons, where the ions are leeched.

Antiquity 82 2007 640-57

Its pretty clear that diviners, even today, detect the water-table, metals and ores in the ground. This must be the background, and the tradition passed to alchemy, as in Nicholas Culpepper's Compleat Herball of 1652, ever since in print!

The science here is Dr Schussler's cell salts, but also the matter of ion exchange resins, used for cleaning up nuclear waste. And so shrouded by security concerns. Alberty at MIT Chem picked up the basic science.

Biophysics Journal 71 1996 507-515

Here you start to see a field context of life. Its a very subtle problem, involving resin, ions, soil, seasons and the Shnoll anomalies!

At 1:38 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

seems to be an impressive work. see if I have time to read it.

To say self is a vehicle of instinct doesn't help. What is instinct, drive?

cell closure is endpoint of metabolism? and The cell wall involves the largest molecule in metabolism - would need definition too.

Individuals have a big difference (50%) in acetylation effect, seen in metabolism of drugs as instanse. Asians have low effect of phase 2 detoxification. Note that the basic regulation is C:N through fats, which then also varies. See the different pathways.

Is self varying in these cases? Maybe, I don't know. It has bothered Damasio a lot what happen with consciousness when the whole body is paralyzed, and he saw some change and some diminishing, but then the whole face = the normal regulator of inputs (through its peculiar nerves which are both autonomous and peripher) are still there. Is the facial input also broken unconscious state will follow. He concluded that it was enough if one whole body subsystem (called microsystem) of the body was functioning. The last peripher nerve going into brain is trigeminus, hence also pain regulator. (Smile is better). This follows maybe the same as Becker found when he reversed the DC-currents. It would be much safer to give anesthesia in this way?

In some alternative circles it is important to eat the whole plant with its roots, also unwashed. This to ingest the whole plant system. Usually we take just one specific part of the plant (a subsystem) for food.

At 5:07 PM, Anonymous Orwin said...

That 50% is typical of deep constitutional effects - heritability of IQ is the same. There is an economic argument for equal division between capitalization and labour: German codetermination principle.

The Fates, Moirai, were Klotho the spinner, Atropos (atropy! As in Lamarck's vestigial organs) and Lachesis, spindle, also portion or lot in life. Instinct amongst us moderns seems to suffer from atrophy. But I guess its pattern recognition, like immune function: the herb you need, patterns of weather, behaviour. 'Drives' are mainly your heart wanting you to exercise!

The largest molecule I found researching glycoprotein, and glycolipid, which coats the cell. That's why potroast is so filling, and everywhere the mainstay of peasants.

At 5:54 PM, Anonymous Orwin said...


All I can say is that one clinic with a really good reputation in surgery is on highly ionic soil. And post-operative shock (I have suffered a more than enough) seams to lock into cramp/electrolyte imbalance. This is consistent with ion field as context of life. Ginco bilboa has served me well as a remedy.

At 11:04 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

Instinct may be to foresee the future, more like intuition?

Cognition - recognition? As source and memory?

'Drives' are mainly your heart wanting you to exercise! - There are lots af ad hoc assumptions in biology, and this is one. We have got so used to them that they sometimes are hard to recognize.

Attached to the cellmembrane are lots of 'antennas' that scan the surroundings. Like a singing (we should not forget the Song of Life) forrest on the cellsurface, also incl. nanotubes, electrical synapses etc. Glucoproteines are one of them. The problem in Alzheimers is exactly that these antennas are broken and then the cell loose the proper contact to its environment. This also makes a forrest of transmission of signals back and fro (like the arachidonacid cycle, Crebs cycle, shortly these are called molecular motors). Something is given as input, it turns around in the circle some times, and the output is depending on so many things. Many times the correlation give wrong result here. A better view would be an order for something, a request, like a negative energy signal?

What is a signal? I discussed this some time ago without result. The question is good.

Glucoproteines are many times troublesome because they are not easily degraded. This is seen in diabetics, as instance. Too much C is not good, as is not too much N either (the 50% rule have disturbances?). N is a very potent signal, as seen in heart failures, potence problems etc. N is maybe close to what we call 'drive'? An expansion or superposition of self, making entanglement (interaction) possible. You know, we easily project ourself on others and interpret the others through the filter of ourselves. This is the basic mechanism for perceptions and superorganisms? Our minds touch each other?

Life is on the egg. N expands ourself, C makes the measuremnts in the (quantal) energy gap, and compress us in the measuring process? Relativistic mass? Is this the 'jump'? We are never more living than when we makes love?

PS. You are very openminded and it is fun to discuss these things here, but what says Matti?

At 11:07 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

About the Song of Life. Signals are hierarchial too? One signal, many pathways and outputs?

At 6:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I firmly believe that Salvia is the substance that provides a means to view the machinations of consciousness/reality.

The similarities amongst different peoples and different experiences resonates this belief of mine.


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