Wednesday, March 14, 2012

A proposal for microtubular memory code

In an article in the March 8 issue of the journal PLoS Computational Biology, physicists Travis Craddock and Jack Tuszynski of the University of Alberta, and anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff of the University of Arizona propose a mechanism for encoding synaptic memory in microtubules, major components of the structural cytoskeleton within neurons. The self-explanatory title of the article is Cytoskeletal Signaling: Is Memory Encoded in Microtubule Lattices by CaMKII Phosphorylation?.

1. Basic ideas of the model

The hexagonal cylindrical lattice of microtubule suggests the possibility of lattice consisting of bits and probably very many proposals have been made. One such idea is that bit is represented in terms of the two basic conformations of tubulin molecules called α and β. The recent proposal is that bit corresponds to the phosphorylation state of tubulin. Also a proposal that the bits form 6-bit bytes is considered: 64 different bytes are possible which would suggest a connection with the genetic code.

The motivation for the identification of byte is that CaMKII enzyme has in the active state insect like structure: 6 + 6 legs and the legs are either phosphorylated or not. This geometry is indeed very suggestive of connexion with 6 inputs and 6 outputs representing genetic codons representable as sequences of 6 bits. The geometry and electrostatics of CaMKII is complementary to the microtubular hexagonal lattice so that CaMKII could take care of the phosphorylation of microtubulins: 6 tubulins at most would be phosphorylated at one side. The presence of Ca+2 or calmodulin flux flowing to the neuron interior during nerve pulse is responsible for self-phosphorylation of CaMKII: one can say that CaMKII takes itself care that it remains permanently phosphorylated. I am not sure whether this stable phosphorylation means complete phosphorylation.

It is however difficult to imagine how Ca+2 and calmodulin flux could contain the information about the bit sequence and how this information could be coded in standard manner to phosphorylation pattern of legs. The only possibility which looks natural is that phosphorylation is a random process and only the fraction of phosphorylated legs depends on Ca+2 and calmodulin fluxes. Another possibility would be that the subsequence process of phosphorylation MT by completely phosphorylated CaMKII manages to do it selectively but it is very difficult to imagine how the information about codon could be transferred to the phosphorylation state of MT.

For these reasons my cautious conclusion is that phosphorylation/its absence cannot represent bit. What has been however found is a mechanism of phosphorylation of MTs, and the question is what could be the function of this phosphorylation. Could this phosphorylation be related to memory but in different manner? The 6+6 structure of CaMKII certainly suggests that the analog of genetic code based on 6 bits might be present but realized in some other manner.

1.1 What does one mean with memory?

Before proceeding one must make clear what one means with memory in the recent context. The articles of New Scientists with - almost as a rule - sensationalistic titles, do not pay too much attention for the fact this kind of proposals are always based on some philosophical assumptions which might be wrong.

  1. What one means with "memory" in the recent context? The memory in question is behavioral memory. Conditioning producing reflect like reaction is a typical example of behavioral memory and need not have anything to do with conscious memory such as episodal memory in which one literally re-lives an event of past. Electric stimulation of some regions of temporal lobes can indeed induce this kind of memories. The idea about coding would suggest the identification of this memory with a highly symbolic computer memory based on "carving in stone".

  2. The proposal is inspired by the idea of brain or cell as computer and can be criticized. There is no pressing need for coding since behavioral memory can be reduced to the formation of associations and associative learning by computers is standard example of this kind of behavioral memory. One can of course consider the coding for declarative and verbal memories and genetic code provides an attractive candidate for a universal code. This kind of code might be behind the natural languages as a kind of molecular language.

  3. Behavioral memories can be defined as changes of behavior resulting from a continued stimulus. The understanding of behavioral memory relies on the notions of synaptic strength, synaptic plasticity, and long term potentiation. Synaptic strength tells how strongly the postsynaptic neuron responds to the nerve pulse pattern arriving along pre-synaptic axon and mediated by neurotransmitter over the synaptic gap. For instance, glutamate acts as excitatory neurotransmitter and binding to receptor. At neuronal levels long term potentiation means increase of the synaptic strength so that post-synaptic neuron becomes "more attentive" to the firing of pre-synaptic neuron.

    Hebb's rules - not established laws of Nature and plagued by exceptions - state that the effectiveness of synaptic receptors increases, when the two neurons fire simultaneously: it is important to notice that these firings need not have any causal connection with each other. The simultaneous firing activates NMDA receptors in the post-synaptic neuron and generates Ca+2 flux which correlates with the increase of the synaptic strength. NMDA obeys same chemical formula C5H9NO4 as glutamate: in fact, glutamate and asparagin the two acidic amino-acids. It is also known that the presence of CaKMII is necessary for the increase of the synaptic strengths.

  4. There is however an almost-paradox involved with this view about memory if assumed to explain all kinds of memories - in particular episodal memories. Long term conscious memories can be lifelong. Synaptic structures are however highly unstable since the synapses and proteins involved are cycled. To my view this argument is somewhat naive. There could be a flow equilibrium. The flow pattern of fluid flow in flow equilibrium can be stable although the fluid is replaced with new one all the time. The proposal of authors is that memories are stored to some more stable structures and that microtubules are these more stable structures making possible short term memories. Post-synaptic microtubules, which differ from presynaptic microtubules in several manners are indeed stabilized by MAPs. Authors also propose the thin filaments associated with the cytoskeleton are responsible for long term memories.

    Authors believe on computationalism and they apply standard view about time so that their conclusion is that long term memories are stored elsewhere and remain able to regulate synaptic plasticity. In this framework the notion of memory code is very natural.

1.2 LTP and synaptic plasticity

From Wikipedia one can read that synaptic plasticity means possibility for changes in function, location and/or number of post-synaptic receptors and ion channels. Synapses are indeed very dynamical and synaptic receptors and channel proteins are transient, which does not seem to conform with the standard view about long term memory and indeed suggest that the stable structures are elsewhere.

Long term potentiation, briefly LTP, involves gene expression, protein synthesis and recruitment of new receptors or even synapses. The mechanism of LTP is believed to be following. The glutamate from pre-synaptic neuron binds to post-synaptic receptors, which leads to the opening of Ca+2 channels and influx of Ca+2 ions to dendritic spines, shafts and neuronal cell body. The inflow of Ca+2 induces activation of multiple enzyme including protein kinase A and C and CaMKII. These enzymes phosphorylate intra-neuronal molecules.

It is known that the presence of CaMKII is necessary for long term potentiation. This supports the proposal of authors that microtubules are involved in an essential manner in memory storage and processing and regulation of synaptic plasticity. The observation about the correspondence between the geometries of CaMKII and microtubular surface is rather impressive support for the role of MTs. To my opinion, the hypothesis about memory code is however un-necessary.

1.3 Microtubules

Quite generally, microtubules (MTs) are basic structural elements of cytoskeleton. They are rope like polymers and grow as long as 25 micrometers long. They are highly dynamical. The standard view identifies their basic function as maintaining of cell structures, providing platforms for intracellular transport, forming the spindle during mitosis, etc..

Microtubules are extremely rich in eukaryotic biology and brain neurons. They are believed to connect membrane and cytoskeletal levels of information processing together. MTs are the basic structural elements of axons and MTs in axons and dendrites/neuronal cell bodies are different. Dendrites contain antiparallel arrays MTs interrupted and stabilized by microtubule associated proteins (MAPs) including MAP2. This difference between dendritic and axonal microtubules could be relevant for the understanding of the neuronal information processing. Microtubules are associated also with long neural pathways from sensory receptors, which seem to maximize their length.

For these reasons it would not be surprising if MTs would play a key role in the information processing at neuronal level. Indeed, the more modern view tends to see microtubules as the nervous system of the cell, and the hexagonal lattice like structure of microtubuless trongly suggests information processing as a basic function of microtubules. Many information processing related functions have been proposed for microtubules. Microtubules have been suggested role as cellular automatons and also quantum coherence in microtubular scale has been proposed.

The proposal of the article is that short term memory is realized in terms of a memory code at the level of MTs and that intermediate filaments which are much more stable could be responsible for long term memory.

1.4 CaMKII enzyme

According to the proposal the key enzyme of memory would be Calcium/calmodulin-dependent protein kinase II: briefly CaMKII. Its presence is known to be necessary for long term potentiation.

In passive state CaMKII has snowflake shape. The activated kinase looks like double sided insect with six legged kinase domains on both sides of a central domain. Activation means phosphorylation of the 6+6 legs of this "nano-insect". In the presence of Ca+2 or calmodulin flux CaKMII self-actives meaning self-phosphorylation so that it remains permanently active.

There are however grave objections against phosphate=1--no-phosphate=0 coding.

  1. Only the fluxes of Ca+2 and/or calmodulin matter so that it is very difficult to imagine any coding. One would expect that the fraction of phosphorylated legs depends on these fluxes in equilibrium but it is very difficult to image how these fluxes could carry information about a specific pattern of phosphorylation for legs. If all legs are phosphorylated the coding to microtubular phosphorylation would require that 6 bits of information is fed at this stage by telling which leg actually gives its phosphate to tubulin. This does not look two plausible but one must be very cautious in making too strong conclusions.

  2. Since metabolic energy is necessary for any information processing, the more plausible interpretation would be that phosphorylation makes bit active. Bit itself would be represented in some other manner. The 6+6 leg structure of CaMKII is very suggestive of a connexion with 6 incoming bits and 6 outgoing bits - possible same or conjugated. The interpretation in terms of DNA codon and its conjugate is what comes first in mind.

One should not however throw away child with the wash water. The highly interesting discovery discussed in the article is that the spatial dimensions, geometric shape, and electrostatic binding of the insect-like CamKII and hexagonal lattices of tubulin proteins in microtubules fit nicely together. The authors show how CaMKII kinase domains can collectively bind and phosphorylate MTs. This alone could be an extremely important piece of information. There is no need to identify bit with phosphorylation state.

2. TGD view about the situation

TGD based view about memory could have been developed by starting from the paradox related to long term memories. Memories are long lasting but the structures supposed to be responsible for their storage are short-lived. TGD based solution of the paradox would be based on new view about the relationship between geometric time and experienced time.

  1. According to this view brain is 4-dimensional and primary memories are in the time-place, where the neural event took place for the first time. In principle there would be no need to store memories by "carving them in stone". To remember would be to see in time direction: this view is indeed possible in zero energy ontology. Time-like entanglement and signaling to the geometric past using negative energy signals would be the basic mechanisms of memory.

  2. Stable memories require copies also for another reason. The negative energy signal to geometric past is not expected to allow a precise targeting to a one particular moment of time in past. To circumvent the problem one must make the target large enough in time direction. The strengthening of memory would mean building up large number of copies of memory. These copies are produced in every conscious memory recall and learning would be based on this mechanism. The neuronal mechanism would produce large number of copies of the memory and one can ask whether CaMKII indeed generates phosphorylated sections of MT somehow essential for the representation of long term symbolic memories as names for experiences rather than experiences themselves.

  3. Metabolism must relate also to conscious memory recall. Since negative energy signals are involved, there is great temptation to assume that de-phosphorylation liberating metabolic energy corresponding to the absorbed negative energy accompanies memory recall. Large hbar for the photons involved would allow very low frequencies -expected to characterize the time span of memory recall- and make communications over very long time intervals possible. This would mean that the original memory representation is destroyed in the memory recall. This would conform with the spirit of quantum no-cloning theorem. Several copies of the memory representation would be needed and also feed of metabolic energy to generate new copies. In this framework conscious memory recall would be dynamical event rather than stable bit sequence in accordance with the vision about quantum jump as moment of consciousness.

2.1 Braiding and memory

This leaves a lot of freedom to construct more detailed models of symbolic memories.

  1. Braiding of magnetic flux tubes would make possible not only topological quantum computation but also a universal mechanism of long term memory. In the model of DNA as topological quantum computer the flux tubes connect DNA nucleotides and lipids of cell membrane. It turned out that the flux tubes carrying dark matter - identified as ordinary particles but with non-standard value of Planck constant - could connect all kinds of biomolecules and that braiding and reconnection could serve as basic quantum mechanisms in the functioning of biomolecules. Flux tubes could also connect the tubulins of microtubules and lipids of axonal or dendritic membrane.

  2. Two kinds of braidings are present: the lipid flow defines braiding in time direction as the analog of dance and the fact that lipids are like dancers with threads from shoes the wall - now microtubule surface - so that the dance induce braiding of these threads storing the dynamics of the dance to memory. The presence of both space-like and time-like braiding and the fact that they are in well-defined sense dual has become central idea of quantum TGD itself. Originally it was however discovered in the model for DNA as topological quantum computer.

  3. Both active memory recall by sending negative energy dark photon to geometric past and spontaneous memory recall by receiving a positive energy photons from geometric past require metabolic energy. Therefore the presence of phosphate in braid strands is necessary. The flux tubes defining braid strands can be therefore assumed to be active only if they have phosphate at the other end. A more appropriate TGD based interpretation is that this makes possible negentropic entanglement, which is one of the basic predictions of the number theoretic vision about life. High energy phosphate bond would thus a signature of negentropic entanglement, which could serve as a correlate for the experience of understanding. One could relate ATP-ADP process as a basic process of life directly to cognition. The presence of phosphate would tell that there is magnetic flux tube - actually pair of them- beginning from the molecule.

2.2 TGD inspired microtubular model of memory

The finding of the authors inspires a more detailed formulation for the vision for how memories could be realized at microtubular level.

  1. The phosphorylation of tubulins would generate active braids strands and their presence would make possible memory recall. Note that memories as such could be stored to the braiding in any case if the microtubule-lipid flux tubes are present always. Every nerve pulse pattern would induce a flow of lipids at neuronal membrane if the membrane is in a phase corresponding to 2-D liquid crystal. This flow pattern would be stored to the braiding of the flux tubes.

  2. In the model of DNA as topological quantum computer one assigns to braid strands connecting DNA nucleotides to lipids 4 different states representing the nucleotides A,T,C, G. In the original model the A,T,C,G were mapped to four states defined by quarks u,d and their antiquarks at the ends of braid strands. This proposal can be of course accused of being quite too science fictive. TGD however predicts the possibility of scaled up variants of QCD type physics even in the scale of living matter and there are some indications for this.

    A more down-to-earth realization of the genetic code proposed quite recently is that braid states correspond to pairs of magnetic flux tubes. To the ends of both flux tubes one assigns electron so that the electrons form spin triplet and spin singlet state defining 3+1 states representing A,T,C,G. This gives also a connection with electronic super-conductivity which is fundamental assumption in the model of nerve pulse based on Josephson currents: nerve pulse corresponds to a simple perturbation of the ground state in which all Josephson current along axon are oscillating in the same phase. Mathematically the phase difference behaves like gravitational pendulum (see the TGD inspired model for nerve pulse).

    The 6=2+2+2 legs could correspond to flux tube pairs and each flux tube pair would represent DNA nucleotide in terms of the spin state of electron pair. Phosphorylation would activate the braid strand by making possible negentropic entanglement and information storage and recall. This conforms with the fact of life is that metabolic energy is needed for all kinds of information processing including also information storage.

  3. For this proposal LTP would mean generation of active braid strands. The post-synaptic neuron would be in "wake-up" state and would pay attention to the nerve pulse patterns arriving from the pre-synaptic neuron. This activation would be induced by simultaneous firing of post-synaptic and pre-synaptic neurons. As a consequence, the lipid flow would generate braidings providing memory representations and defining in temporal domain quantum computation like processes.

  4. This does not yet explain why CaMKII is necessary for LTP. There is a high temptation to regard the increase of the synaptic sensitivity as a property of synaptic connection. One can imagine several mechanisms.

    1. For instance, active flux tube connections between presynaptic lipids and postsynaptic microtubuli could be generated by phosphorylation, and the flux tubes might increase the flow of glutamate between pre- and post-synaptic neurons and in this manner increase synaptic strength. Flux tubes might make possible a continual flow of dark particles between pre- and post-synaptic neurons. They could also make possible negentropic entanglement between the two neutrons binding the neurons to single coherent quantum whole.

    2. The strength of this connection could be affected also by the presence of active braid strands making possible quantum memory and topological quantum computation. Also more complex processes assigned with LTP would become possible since microtubules might be seen as conscious intelligent structures able to modify their nearby environment.

For background see chapter Quantum Model for Memory of "TGD Inspired Theory of Consciousness".

16 Comments:

At 1:51 PM, Blogger ThePeSla said...

Matti,

I used your model in that I understand the scope of it if not the details in my post today as to the relationship to our ideas of consciousness. (so Ulla this is a new take on such definitions as you asks in the comment on the last post here)

I find Lubos has an interesting post which ends on the triality issue I think (yes the pages are sigma boring to me too) "I cannot believe..." on this pi (3?)day.

In the next level of consciousness definition all our methods have to be applied to this next level which I hope will shore up the physics of this aready abstract level of topological dynamics.

A single neuron can recognize a face, well what if in the zillions we lose that one neuron?

Anyway thanks for the answer to my question on the actual physics that may involve such microtubls...
But I will have to read it later.

ThePeSla pesla.blogspot com the universe as perception and TGD-like consciousness systems

Ulla, when you ask me for links how can I do so if I mainly google what is in my head? But the internet science papers have gained respect lately- if that is how you are asking me that?

Will kea come back, I miss her take on things- seems like we continue such issues of the new physics, even Lubos seems to make such comments for or against it.

 
At 4:13 PM, Anonymous ◘Fractality◘ said...

Matti:

If one has amnesia about a certain event, that doesn't mean the event didn't happen!

If memory has a geometric correlate and brain is 4-dimensional in a sense, that should help to understand how memories can be retrieved under regressive hypnosis.

I think TGD should propose a detailed model for memory retrieval under hypnosis ;)

 
At 10:12 PM, Anonymous matpitka@luukku.com said...

To Pesla:

The hierarchy of infinite primes and Hilbert hierarchy would naturally have many-sheeted space-time as its physical realization in TGD Universe. Braids of braids of... The formation of systems consisting of systems consisting .... of elementary articles would correspond to hierarchy of N:th order logics physically in many-sheeted space-time.

You mention Lubos and Kea. What troubles me in recent day particle physics is the attitude towards problems like neutrino mixing. In this n-sigma talk one talks endlessly about the end product of theoretical activity instead of directing attention to its origin: the problem. To me just-born child is much more interesting that the dead corpse- be it famous or not!;-)

Neutrino mixing matrix is a good example about how end product replaces the problem. Neutrino is assimilated with the matrix used to model it. The real problem - what mixing means and what is its origin - disappears and questions like that of Lubos emerge: is mixing matrix involution. In the same manner Kea played endlessly with magic matrices. Sad to put this so bluntly but to my view this is waste of time.

When one really sees the real problem from matrices, one notices first that the mixing matrix is not actually neutrino mixing matrix but product V=UD^dagger of the matrices describing mixings of charged leptons and neutrinos. It is V that appears in electroweak couplings tells how much the mixings for charged leptons and neutrinos differ from each other.


What is this mixing physically and geometrically? This is the second question when one begins to see the problem instead of matrices.

A possible answer provided by TGD is that topological mixing of topological of partonic 2-surfaces is in question: partonic state with topology of sphere is slightly mixed with torus topology and sphere with 2-handles. Mixings are different for neutrinos and charged leptons because of electroweak symmetry breaking.

At this state also models and even predictions begin to emerge and also a question. Where are the higher topologies: sphere with more than 2 handles? Are these states very massive or what?

 
At 10:22 PM, Anonymous matpitka@luukku.com said...

To Fractality:

This is true in TGD Universe. Memories are extremely flexible and can be edited. This is not a dramatic prediction since this is indeed known to be the case.

The new realization during writing of post was that memory recall by sending negative energy might destroy it in the sense that the phosphates of forming 6-bit sequences as analogs of genetic codons and defining braiding units are used in the memory recall.

A possible test would be to see whether the phosphates brought by CaMKII to microtubular surface indeed appear as 6-bit sequences, and whether memory recall destroys the whole sequence at once in order to get metabolic energy compensated by negative energy large hbar photons. Energy would be around .5 eV by the way.


I wish I had time to do all these things I have been requested to do;-). I would need at least infinite number of good students to whom I could delegate all these requests!

 
At 11:12 PM, Anonymous ◘Fractality◘ said...

Matti:

Hmmm, so if the negative energy that is used for memory recall can also "destroy" it, perhaps the state of hypnosis (trance state = less dissipation?) utilizes negative/metabolic energy that would otherwise be used in other processes.

That additional energy would be "coaxed" into memory recall.

 
At 2:51 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

Brannen: Most expensive link ever. Too slow for Morse Code. But it goes through a thousand miles of rock: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.2847

http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2012/03/entanglement_is_not_that_magic.php?utm_source=combinedfeed&utm_medium=rss
EPR is entanglement by light?

 
At 3:52 AM, Anonymous matpitka@luukku.com said...

To Fractality:

The most pessimistic view would be that memory at quantum level is teleportation so that no-cloning theorem would apply.

To Ulla:

It is wrong to say that entanglement is entanglement by light. Just entanglement.

 
At 1:39 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

I should be able to find out that myself :) One more stupid question, is a lightlike spacetime always entangled or continuous? It should be (it is holistic?), but it must also be descreate with different fields meeting, maybe with 'massgaps'? So it both have symmetry and break the symmetry. This is made visible by Feynmans diagrams and loops? Loops for creativity (the 3 body problem?)?

About different kinds of memory, note the different kinds of consciousness too, as Automatic Consciousness?

 
At 9:28 PM, Anonymous matpitka@luukku.com said...

Ulla,

it is very difficult to understand the concept of entanglement without appropriate mathematics.

Entanglement has no interpretation in terms of everyday experience. You cannot perceive a state which is superposition of states in which Schrodinger's cat is dead and bottle of poison is open and Schrodinger's cat is alive and bottle of poison closed. Mathematically this kind of state makes complete sense but not at the level of sensory experience.

The basic property of sensory perception indeed is that it makes state classical by state function reduction.

Automatic consciousness is in TGD Universe a non-sensical notion. And also in the real universe: when a performance requiring learning becomes automatic it is not anymore a conscious performance. If there is still consciousness, it is at lower levels of the hierarchy, not ours, where things need not be automatic.

This is a good example of how prevailing theories of consciousness - in this case computationalism - neglect even the most elementary facts about consciousness. Same applies also in particle physics. Seeing that which is - about which Krishnamurti talks a lot - is is very very important for a theorist;-). Too often theorists are unable to see anything from the shadow of their own gigantic ego!

 
At 12:54 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

But at the level of entanglement?

What you say only is that measurements in sensing are classic measurements. This was the problem I talked of earlier. Entanglement is coming into the pic much earlier and are independent of measurements. This is why they 'collapse' in the measurement. Or can we say the sampling is only from a certain field that oscillate? Wrong 'sampling' are sorted out.

You also talk of the Big Book and Josephsons currents as the back of the Book. Then Josephsons currents must be interfering with the entangled fields (via Yang Mills and twistors, knots?), Knots and Feynman diagrams, loops are very much the same as the 3 body problem, but in microscale?

Note, homeostasis is always negentropic in a low way. The lower the better. Allostasis is equilibrium at higher negentropic levels and always indicate disturbed balance. The Josephson junctions are also always at slight negentropic state (groundstate of living matter). If they are allowed to relax furter death (of self?) is a consequence. At lower entropic level are the sheets wider, thus hbar grows?

Also between sensing and entanglements are a field of computations or braidings making all those geometric figures, matrices and numbers? Matrices don't come by themselves, they are possibilities. Those are sensed and analyzed further, most are sorted out, then the perception first comes, and the consciousness, which also contains much learned things. Intention and Self is essential, yes, but only for things allowed to enter the 'flame' in working memory. p-adics fields are linked here, making the 'flame' in form of flux tubes, fusing the sheets?. My point is that there are so much consciousness 'left over' in the body, not used to anything else but memories. Hypnosis etc. can take these memories into consideration. They are also seen in split brain patients.

This must mean there are different hierarchies of consciousness, beginning from almost nothing, in kind of 'automatic consciousness' and built up into awareness in working 'flame' where the cognition also is extracted. But there must also be hierarchies in cognitions as there are hierarchies of selves? Some sort? Consciousness is more like 'saved memories of consciousness in the body/sense organs. The phospholylation-link is very interesting here, as I have seen them as saved frequencies of some kinds, or topological islands. Thoughts and emotions are 'rasing up from the body' many times, say in walking. They need some energy to get into awareness, either from your intention, meaning, emotional status, or from the body itself. This is very much the meaning of pain.

Also the enzyme is interesting, linked to the same form in carbon and water. What this means is a metabolic question? Oxygen and Nitrogen also need to be there. Then you have the molecules of Life (and negentropy?).

I often get the picture you are running hard and my feets hardly touch the ground when I try to follow :)

 
At 4:47 AM, Anonymous matpitka@luukku.com said...

Ulla,

I am not saying that sensory perceptions are classical measurements. I am saying that fundamental character of quantum measurements is that they make the world to look classical. When you measure whether Schroedingers cat is dead ore alive, you find that it is dead or alive but not both.

Interference is possible for similar field components: for instance, wave components representing electric field propagating in same direction. Therefore
It does not make sense to speak about interference of em fields and Josephson currents: it would be like summing temperature and pressure. All this is difficult to understand without appropriate mathematics but become totally trivial when one has it.

The basic problem is lack of common language. Mathematics is extremely abstract, technical, and powerful language but writing everything using formulas is not practical. Hence words like interference, entanglement, coherence, etc.... These words provide a loose higher level language. Unfortunately, this language is misleading without the understanding of the lower level language based on precise mathematical notions.

Sad that human life span is so short. One can become concert pianist or mathematician but very rarely both;-).

 
At 9:35 AM, Blogger ThePeSla said...

Memory as a concept, consciousness likewise, even if I imagine it to be stored or retrieved in the vacuum... it has to go beyond this that there are structures in the vacuum.

These are remote and yet in the here and now. We clearly see two approaches to higher ideas like supersymmetry, we imagine some things that is theory and some things that is physics based as foundational.

The next level of answers is the nature of the uniqueness or reality of a solution at some model of singularity.

You have raised some interesting questions at a time I am pondering this new area. But memory as I see it cannot just vanish into a simple concept of a field or parton structure as a vacuum. That our version of muons is real it also makes the remote abstract theories all the more real.

What did you mean by magic matrices endless computed is that not the same as the paradoxes of some sort of hopeful infinity of primes in the simple vacuum? If TGD can be integrated as you ask then are not magic squares places that describe stable integrations?

These new theoretical times will merge ideas like string theory with those along the lines of Kea's concepts. That is so much of new theory can stand or fall together just as the geometries and non-euclidean ones to which we find no one the exclusive truth.

The uniqueness of a holographic idea such as the classical electron beyond the concept of dimensions and scale, as if the parton (word used in the primitive nucleus state) is conceptually composed of sub units as a possibility some imagine. The electron itself composed in its volume as perhaps subunits.

Also Kea implied the structure and left it in the work on the real level of what we can handle first of the next few dimensions of symmetry. If something braids where does it braid within beyond its vibration dimensions? Such work even in our speculations should have a sense of caution and logical development and such work is a very much needed steppingstone to a possibly endless quest.

With strings in theory we can write on the unique surface of say a general classical electron and so derive in the here and now the uniqueness of its reality, nature's alphanumeric code (which follows my last post if I decide to write and work it out more.)

Is this not in a sense the description of our minds and memories? Is it not the solution of how things can be similar yet the information and meaning = unique unity and content, be part of a more general system? As such the information is a good view of the level of quantum theory and the development of it and the reduction back in a sense to where there is no need for quantum logic as a unique exotic logic.

Or in the ABC123 of it we impose the idea of a string: "ABC123" and call that a number such as those of which we see beyond our usual sense of them- wide theories like the adele I mentions some months ago or for those on the lookout for new idea pathways or to discourage them, these braided on some level and solved in the ideas of neutrino mixing generations (I do address that in my recent posts, but we need to be on the lookout for new concepts as well.

Lifespan is he issue also- and too many assume there is not enough time even though the universe itself as far as I can see and perceive is quasifinite- or quasinifinite, the same word perhaps.

On the very small which from some view does not exist beyond say the physical reality of the weak force along Rowlands idea of physicality as primary - which would include h and c thus foundational after all, we have to work our the fine details of division of spheres and such so to reassemble them where the paradoxes are needed for a unified theory short of heaven. But this higher level philosophic continuum is perhaps beyond the scope of our thesis, its questions and answers as our intuitive and enquiring paths, each unique, diverge once entangled in as much echos of thought as well as time and light.

The PeSla

 
At 11:28 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

Schrödinger cat is one particle only, but for the biological effects you need the many-body state, and there you can have the dead and alive state in total. After all humans are more dead than alive, usually.

And I am an concert pianist that not even know how to play :)

Krennikov use the many minds approach. What are your thoughts about him? He don't use p-adics as cognition medium, but he use p-adics in his theory. I feel it is quite good, except the cognition. Quantum waves are transmitting consciousness as superpositions, but how are they made commutative for linear transmission? I like the basic idea, though.

http://www.quantum-mind.co.uk/andrei-khrennikov-c452.html

 
At 12:35 AM, Anonymous matpitka@luukku.com said...

Ulla:

I have been in contact with Khrennikov (K in what follows) and even visited Växsjo.

As a mathematician K has written a book about p-adic analysis. His approach in this books is different from mine. K sees the number theoretic constraints posed by p-adics as a hindrance and introduces maximal algebraic extension of p-adics analogous to algebraic numbers. For me these constraints are absolutely essential and evolution would be generation of extensions of rationals and p-adics with increasing dimension and algebraic complexity would correlate with evolutionary level. One could talk about number theoretical quantization in this framework.

K has proposed a 2-adic model for neural networks in brain. Tree like structures which branch again and again. Also some ideas involving 4-adicity (4-adic numbers are not a field but ring) in the case of DNA code. My own purely mathematical models of genetic code have not led to any big insights whereas the dark matter inspired view predicts all the basic numbers related to the code and even more. K has also proposed a brain model involving notions assigned to psychology. This is of course something out of question in Finland, where independent thinking has been criminalized in academic circles. In fact, I had the honor to serve as a referee of some articles of K;-) .

K has proposed a p-adic approach to the Bell inequalities. The idea is that p-adic counterparts of classical probabilities might allow to describe state function events which do not allow description in terms of ordinary real probabilities. Experimentally these events are observed and this means death of hidden variable theories aiming to reduce quantum theory to classical physics. Interference effects due to the fact that quantum theory is in some sense square root of probability theory, prevent the reduction to classical physics. I am skeptic about the reduction to classical physics using p-adic probabilities: it is too tricky. I however hasten to admit that during first years of p-adics physics I also considered seriously some tricky ideas inspired by p-adic mathematics.

K has also discussed the idea that brain performs quantum like processing without being quantal. To me this looks quite too cautious and means losing the basic gift of quantum theory: the possibility to get grasp on what consciousness is . Using the phrase "quantum like" instead of "quantal" is probably wise since academic survival poses very strong constraints on what one can say. DNA as topological quantum computer is my own proposal for how brain processes informations and builds memory representations using braiding.

 
At 1:54 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.4215
http://arxiv.org/abs/1202.0631
Quantum Cheshire Cat

 
At 2:00 PM, Blogger Ulla said...

http://www.livescience.com/19268-quantum-double-slit-experiment-largest-molecules.html

molecules containing either 58 or 114 atoms through the so-called "double-slit experiment," showing that they cause an interference pattern that can only be explained if the particles act like waves of water, rather than tiny marbles.

 

Post a Comment

<< Home