Friday, February 26, 2010

Magnetic flux tubes and ocean bacteria as super-organism

Again new evidence for the role of magnetic flux tubes in living matter (I am grateful for the link to Mark McWilliams)! Now as potential carriers of oxygen making the population of sea bacteria act as a super-organism. See the New Scientist article The real Avatar: ocean bacteria act as 'superorganism'.


donkerheid said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matti Pitkänen said...

Dear Donkerheid,

I got the email with your question about how the electrons/oxygen are transferred along flux tubes. As I went to my blog I found to my great surprise that your comment had beenr removed by author! I apologize although I am not that author. I hope that this is not a new trick of my unseen web enemy to make my work and communications impossible.

In any case, your question was.

How you think this electron/(oxygen?) transfer happens exactly? It's enough if you give a link so I don't harrass you further :)

'Knowing exactly' is too strong requirement;-). Electrons and oxygen could be transferred along magnetic flux tubes connecting bacteria. The existence of so called nanotubes connecting remote cells was discovered for some time ago. They could be ordinary matter condensed around flux tubes. If the tubes are dark in TGD sense- that is correspond to large hbar- also a phase transition changing hbar to large value and back is needed for the transfer along them.

Second possibility is remote metabolism. The bacteria can send negative energy signals to the bacteria at surface and get metabolic energy as a "recoil effect". "Topological light rays" / "massless extremals" parallel to flux tubes would represent these analogs of phase conjugate laser rays. Kind of quantum credit card system would be in question.


Ulla said...

Here a 'organism' from shallow water; oxygen is wasteproduct.
With multiple species involved.

Modern freshwater microbialite analogues for ancient dendritic reef structures.
Bernard Laval, Sherry L. Cady, John C. Pollack, Christopher P. McKay, John S. Bird, John P. Grotzinger, Derek C. Ford and Harry R. Bohm.
Nature 407, 626-629(5 October 2000)


This mechanism has been thought of in the origin of life, in stromatoliths. Maybe life really started deep underground?

Earlier was also a story from ants.

And the human body. We are a bacterial colony :)

donkerheid said...

Well, actually I deleted it. Sorry. I thought that I rather should not ask questions I would not really understand anyway. But thank you for the answer :). Bit clearer now.

I've heard that actually forests are massively interconnected systems. Molecules are distributed to everywhere through fungal filaments. Might this be any similar?

Matti Pitkänen said...

Ulla, thank you for links. I hope I can find time to read the article seriously and understand it. Sidney Pollack by the way appears as one of the authors.

And thanks for donkerheid for relief! Do not be afraid to ask. I am not so bad as I might look;-). I did not know that it is possible to delete the messages in this manner. The scale invariance and fractality of these flux tube webs suggests that the answer to your question is more or less yes. Everything might be extremely simple once one accepts this notion of magnetic body but is it psychologically possible to admit that Mesmer was right after all;-)?

Ulla said...

And Tesla...

Maybe I have made him afraid :)

Toomas Sildvee said...

Dear Matti, are there any new developments considering Ormes/Ormus elements in TDG?.

Singerely Yours Toomas Sildvee.

Santeri Satama said...

And Bose and Backster!

Matti Pitkänen said...


No new developments in ORMEs for few years.


This a good point. Plant perception and Backster's findings could also explained in terms of flux tubes. DNA as topological quantum computer model suggests that flux tubes serve as a correlate for directed attention. For instance, this might explain the ability to become conscious about someone staring at your back could explain this. Also the ability to guess who is calling to you. Both themes in Sheldrake's work about which you told.

Ulla said...

In the wikipedia article says: "since plants lack nervous or sensory systems, they are not capable of having feelings, or perceiving human emotions or intentions, which would require a complex nervous system."

But this is not the case. Also in animals the perception is made in different parts and it need no proper nervous system. The functionof the nervous system is to differentiate and reduce (especially that) the signals. The perception is to find the informational signal.

In animals the meridians function as such a system. It is in the loose connective tissue and the meridians regulate and coordinate the nervous system, via gap junctions etc. Also plants have the same system.

I have also read about similar results with Kirlian-technique.

Gabor and I wondered if the atom is functioning through flux tubes too. The electron is hold on place via those tubes, that change according to magnetic momentum change (excitation) when interacting with a photon. It would mean that gluons are eg. magnetic flux tubes?
Are there any direct proof of gluons, or are they only theoretical constructions?

Ulla said...

I look at this, where a gluon is said to come forth from an electon-positron. A quark, antiquark and gluon.

Matti Pitkänen said...

The belief that nervous system is necessary for emotions and qualia is one of these cherished beliefs with no justification. I see it as a specified signalling system making effective information processing possible.

As I have told some times I tend to believe that nervous system builds basically symbolic representations so that also sensory qualia would be at the level of sensory receptors basically: this would allow to get rid of the mystery how neural circuits can give rise to totally different qualia. New view about time allows to get rid of obvious objections (phantom leg, etc..).

If this idea about negentropic and entropic mental images is accepted, emotions are completely universal for habitants of the intersection of real and p-adic worlds.

One might argue that pain is not useful feeling for plants. As a matter fact, Leonardo da Vinci suggested this first! Maybe it is useful feeling after all since also plants move but in much slower time scale. Sunflower turns to sun because it feels good.

Atom should have space-time model based on many-sheeted space-time. I have proposed a model in which electron's orbits correspond to flux tube like space-time sheets. One could say that electron's motion creates a track represented by this flux tube.

Ulla said...

This entropic-negentropic picture can give very much. It has been used for the nervous system, among others.

I looked at photons and gluons, and they can be interpreted as flux tubes, if that picture I gave a link to is two flux tubes.

About plants too. I have handled plants very much, and pain is not really essential for them, only for a moment. You can cut them into pieces and it is only when it is done they suffer. Soon they are as happy as before, if not still happier. I think of cuttings. Plants can benefit from being cut apart. When cows come and want to eat them, then they react more.

The only thing plants fear very much is fire and beatings, or hard vibrations.
That about plant emotional life. Humans are much more complicated. Emotions are hierarchial too? But even an atom can 'feel', about that I am convinced.

How 'feelings' and consciousness are linked is another question. Emotions are real molecules, and that is not consciousness per se.

Ulla said...

I just have to add this one.

Creating collective many-body states with highly excited atoms

B. Olmos, R. González-Férez, and I. Lesanovsky

Phys. Rev. A 81, 023604 (Published February 8, 2010)

Highly excited atoms arranged in a circular lattice exhibit unusual many-particle states.
collective excitations and behaviors resulting from strong correlation, ...however, atoms in highly excited states offer richer opportunities for controlling and studying..Rydberg atoms, where the electrons are excited to very high quantum states and occupy spatially extended orbits, are particularly interesting in this regard...theoretically studied Rydberg atoms in a ring lattice to examine many-particle entangled states.

Anonymous said...

There is more to emotional life of plant psychology. Of course they also respond kindly to positive feelings. There seem also to be "species-spirits" (In Finnish "emuu"), supergenomes?

Certain plants (or plant spirits?) have developed psychoactive coevolutionary relation with humans - and other animals of course with exactly fitting chemical keys to locks in neurons (THC and anandamide receptors, MDA etc) that alter the channel that brain is tuned in. South American shamans who use ayahuasca for altered states of mind tell that it's the "plant spirit" that teaches them about other plants and how to use them for curing.

Trees, especially old and wise, are great teachers of compassion. Hug a tree with love and it responds. Sit under a boddhi-tree and become a buddha.

To all plants, sorry for weeding, gardening is a learning process, and thanks for all the food. :)

Matti Pitkänen said...

As a finn I love woods. For short moments it is possible to feel quite concretely the friendly and calm presence of trees. I am almost sure that in childhood when thoughts were not filling my head, I felt this presence almost all the time.

Ulla said...

I have a 'holy' tree, very old, with furrows and grooves, grows at a church yard. In my mind it is as old as christianity is here, from middle of y. 1300. In her lives the spirits of ancient gods, and most prominent the female god Nerthus (it was her church), or Nerphus, that has been changed to Nerpis, then Nerpes, today Närpes. She was scandalized in a very cruel way by christians.

In my bad times, when I feel dispered, I often go to her and she has always given me comfort.

I also use the woods, the waters. Especially as child when I was beaten and very much alone because of the mobbings.

Sometimes I can feel the vibrations from plants. It is like a light, a glowing, very delightful. But I have never succeeded in going 'into' the tree. Almost once, but I was afraid :)

Sorry, this is not science, but I want to share it with you.

It is very healthy to sometimes empty the mind and only recieve. There are many blessings out there.

Nowadays I use almost entirely 'wild vegetables' from Nature herself. I can't stand the weeding. In fact the weeds are our best 'vegetables' :)