Tuesday, July 07, 2009

Burning water and photosynthesis

For a physicist liberated from the blind belief in reductionism, biology transforms to a single gigantic anomaly about which recent day physics cannot say much. During years I have constructed several models for these anomalies helping to develop a more detailed view about how the new physics predicted by quantum TGD could allow to understand biology and consciousness.

The basic problem is of course the absence of systematic experimentation so that it is possible to imagine many new physics scenarios. For this reason the article series of Mae-Wan Ho [6,7,8,9] in ISIS was a very pleasant surprise, and already now has helped considerably in the attempts to develop the ideas further.

The first article "Water electric" [6] told about the formation of exclusion zones around hydrophilic surfaces, typically gels in the experiments considered [6]. The zones were in potential of about 100 meV with respect to surroundings (same order of magnitude as membrane potential) and had thickness ranging to hundreds of micrometers (the size of a large cell): the standard physics would suggests only few molecular layers instead of millions. Sunlight induced the effect. This finding allow to develop TGD based vision about how proto cells emerged and also the model for chiral selection in living matter by combining the finding with the anomalies of water about which I had learned earlier.

The article "Can water burn?" [7] tells about the discovery of John Kanzius -a retired broadcast engineer and inventor. Kanzius found that water literally burns if subjected to a radio frequency radiation at frequency of 13.56 MHz [17]. The mystery is of course how so low frequency can induce burning. The article "The body does burn water" [8 notices that plant cells burn water routinely in photosynthesis and that also animal cells burn water but the purpose is now to generate hydrogen peroxide which kills bacteria (some readers might recall from childhood how hydrogen peroxide was used to sterilize wounds!). Hence the understanding of how water burns is very relevant for the understanding of photosynthesis and even workings of the immune system.

1. Living matter burns water routinely

Photosynthesis burns water by decomposing water to hydrogen and oxygen and liberating oxygen. Oxygen from CO2 in atmosphere combines with the oxygen of H2O to form O2 molecules whereas H from H2O combines with carbon to form hydrocarbons serving as energy sources for animals which in turn produce CO2. This process is fundamental for aerobic life. There is also a simpler variant of photosynthesis in which oxygen is not produced and applied by an-aerobic life forms. The article "Living with Oxygen" by Mae-Wan Ho gives a nice overall view about the role of oxygen [9]. As a matter fact, also animals burn water but they do this to produce hydrogen peroxide H2O2 which kills very effectively bacteria.

Burning of water has been studied as a potential solution for how to utilize the solar energy to produce hydrogen serving as a natural fuel [7]. The reaction O2+H2 → 2H2O occurs spontaneously and liberates energy of about 1.23 eV. The reverse process 2H2 → H2O2+H2 in the presence of sunlight means burning of water, and could provide the manner to store solar energy. The basic reaction 2H2O + 4 hν→ H2O2+H2 stores the energy of four photons. What really happens in this process is far from being completely understood. Quite generally, the mechanisms making possible extreme efficiency of bio-catalysis remain poorly understood. Here new physics might be involved. I have discussed models for photosynthesis and ADP→ ATP process involved with the utilization of the biochemical energy already earlier [4].

2. How water could burn in TGD Universe?

The new results could help to develop a more detailed model about what happens in photosynthesis. The simplest TGD inspired sketch for what might happen in the burning of water goes as follows.

  1. Assume that 1/4 of water molecules are partially dark (in sense of nonstandard value of Planck constant) or at least at larger space-time sheets in atto-second scale [13,14,15,16]. This would explain the H1.5O formula explaining the results of neutron diffraction and electron scattering.

  2. The question is what this exotic fraction of water precisely is. The models for water electret, exclusion zones and chiral selection lead to concrete ideas about this. Electrons assignable to the H atoms of (partially) dark H2O reside at space-time sheet ke=151 (this p-adic length scale corresponds to 10 nm, the thickness of cell membrane). At least the hydrogen atom for this fraction of water molecules is exotic and findings from neutron and electron scattering suggest that both proton and electron are at non-standard space-time sheets but not necessarily at the same space-time sheet. The model for the burning requires that electron and proton are at different space-time sheets in the initial situation.


  3. Suppose all four electrons are kicked to the space-time sheet of protons of the exotic hydrogen atoms labeled by kp. This requires the energy Eγ = (1-2-n)E0(kp) (the formula involves idealizations). At this space-time sheet protons and electrons are assumed to combine spontaneously to form two H2 atoms. Oxygen atoms in turn are assumed to combine spontaneously to form O2.

  4. For kf=148 and n=3 minimum energy needed would be 4Eγ = 4×.4=1.6 eV. For kp=149 (thickness of lipid layer) and n=2 one would have 4Eγ = 4×.3462=1.385 eV whereas H2O2+ H2→ 2H2O liberates energy 1.23 eV. Therefore the model in which electrons are at cell membrane space-time sheet and protons at the space-time sheet assignable to single lipid layer of cell membrane suggests itself. This would also mean that the basic length scales of cell are already present in the structure of water. Notice that there is no need to assume that Planck constant differs from its standard value.

There is no need to add, that the model is an unashamed oversimplification of the reality. It might however catch the core mechanism of photosynthesis.

3. Burning of salt water induced by RF radiation

Mae-Wan Ho's article "Can water Burn?" [7] provides new information about burning salt water [17], in particular reports that the experiments have been replicated. The water is irradiated using polarized radio frequency light at frequency 13.56 MHz. The energy of radio frequency quantum is Erf=.561×10-7 eV and provides only a minor fraction Erf/E = .436×10-7 of the needed energy which is E=1.23 eV for single 2H2O→ H2O2+H2 event. The structure of water has been found to change, in particular something happens to O-H bonds. The Raman spectrum of the water has changed in the energy range [0.37, 0.43] eV. Recall that the range of metabolic energy quanta E(k,n)=(1-2-n)E0(k) varies for electron in the range [.35, .46] eV in the model for the formation of exclusion zone induced by light. Therefore the photons assigned to changes in Raman spectrum might be associated with the transfer of electrons between space-time sheets.

My original proposal [1] was that some fraction of radio wave photons are dark or transform to dark photons with large Planck constant hbar. At that time I did not realize the connection with photosynthesis and actual burning of water. The recent experimental findings suggest that dark radio frequency photons transform to photons inducing splitting of water as in photosynthesis so that that one should have r=hbar/hbar0=Erf/4E. One could say that large number of radio wave photons combine to form a single bundle of photons forming a structure analogous to what mathematician calls covering space. In the burning event the dark photon would transform to ordinary photon with the same energy. This process would thus transform low energy photons to high energy protons with the ratio r=hbar/hbar0.

Therefore the mechanism for the burning of water in the experiment of Kanzius could be a simple modification of the mechanism behind burning of water in photosynthesis.

  1. Some fraction of dark radio frequency photons are dark or are transformed to dark photons in water and have energies around the energy needed to kick electrons to smaller space-time sheets .4 eV. After this they are transformed to ordinary photons and induce the above process. Their non-elastic scattering from molecules (that is Raman scattering) explains the observation of Raman scattered photons. For a fixed value of hbar the process would occur in resonant manner since only few metabolic quanta are allowed.

  2. How dark radio frequency photons could be present or could be produced in water? Cyclotron radiation assignable to say electrons in magnetic field comes in mind. If the cyclotron radiation is associated with electrons it requires a magnetic field of 4.8 Gauss the cyclotron frequency is 13.56 MHz. This is roughly ten times the nominal value BE=.5 Gauss of the Earth's magnetic field and 24 times the value of dark magnetic field Bd = .4BE=.2 Gauss needed to explain the effects of ELF em fields on vertebrate brain. For cyclotron protons the corresponding magnetic field would be .9 Tesla and for ordinary value of hbar could reside at space-time sheets with size roughly of order of size of lipid layer. Maybe dark matter at flux tubes of Earth's magnetic field with Planck constant equal to hbar/hbar0 = [1/4]×[E/(Erf)] transforms radio frequency photons to dark photons or induces resonantly the generation of cyclotron photons, which in turn leak out from magnetic flux tubes and form ordinary photons inducing the burning of water. Eγ=.4 eV would give hbar/hbar0=1.063×221 and Eγ=.36 eV would give hbar/hbar0=.920×221.

  3. Magnetic fields of magnitude .2 Gauss are in central role in TGD based model of living matter and there are excellent reasons to expect that this mechanism could be involved also with processes involved with living matter. There is indeed evidence for this. The experiments of Gariaev demonstrated that the irradiation of DNA with 2 eV laser photons (which correspond to one particular metabolic energy quantum) induced generation of radio wave photons having unexpected effects on living matter (enhanced metabolic activity) [18], and that even a realization of genetic code in terms of the time variation of polarization direction could be involved. TGD based model [2, 4] identifies radio-wave photons as dark photons with same energy as possessed by incoming visible photons so that a transformation of ordinary photons to dark photons would have been in question. The model assumed hierarchy of values of magnetic fields in accordance with the idea about onion like structure of the magnetic body.

An interesting question concerns the role of salt in the process (and in cells). Is there some trivial explanation for why it must be present or is new physics involved also here? In the experimental arrangement leading to the generation of exclusion zones the pH of water was important control factor, and it might be that the presence of salt has an analogous role to that of protons.

For more detailed representation see the chapter Quantum Model for Nerve Pulse of "TGD and EEG". See also the earlier water memory related posting and the chapter Homeopathy in Many-Sheeted Space-Time of Bio-Systems as Conscious Holograms where also the nuclear realization of the genetic code is discussed.


[1The chapter Dark Nuclear Physics and Condensed Matter of "p-Adic length Scale Hypothesis and Dark Matter Hierarchy".

[2]The chapter Bio-Systems as Conscious Holograms of "Biosystems as Conscious Holograms".

[3] The chapter Homeopathy in Many-Sheeted Space-Time of "Biosystems as Conscious Holograms".\\ .

[4] The chapter Macroscopic Quantum Coherence and Quantum Metabolism as Different Sides of the Same Coin of"Biosystems as Conscious Holograms".

[ 5 The chapter The Notion of Wave-Genome and DNA as Topological Quantum Computer of "Genes and Memes".

[6] Mae-Wan Ho (2009), Water electric. Institute of Science in Society report.

[ 7 Mae-Wan Ho (2009), Can Water burn. Institute of Science in Society report.

[8 Mae-Wan Ho (2009), The body does burn water. Institute of Science in Society report.

[9 Mae-Wan Ho (2009), Living with Oxygen. Institute of Science in Society report.

[10 Zheng, Jian-ming, Pollack, G. (2003), Long-range forces extending from polymer-gel surfaces.

[11] G. Pollack, X. Figueroa, Qing Z. (2009), Molecules, water, and radiant energy: new clues for the origin of life. International journal of molecular sciences 2009;10(4):1419-29.

[ 12 Z. Merali (2006), Water gave life on Earth a guiding hand, New Scientist, issue 2540, 25 February.

[13 M. Chaplin (2005), Water Structure and Behavior.

The description of 41 anomalies of water contains also explanation of H1.5O anomaly.

[14] J. K. Borchardt(2003), The chemical formula H2O - a misnomer, The Alchemist 8 Aug (2003).

[15] R. A. Cowley (2004), Neutron-scattering experiments and quantum entanglement, Physica B 350 (2004) 243-245.

[16] R. Moreh, R. C. Block, Y. Danon, and M. Neumann (2005), Search for anomalous scattering of keV neutrons from H2O-D2O mixtures, Phys. Rev. Lett. 94, 185301.

[17] Burning salt water.

[18] P. P. Gariaev et al(2002), The spectroscopy of bio-photons in non-local genetic regulation, Journal of Non-Locality and Remote Mental Interactions, Vol 1, Nr 3.


At 10:39 AM, Blogger Ulla said...

Here is the mithochondrion, the opposite to chlorophyll, interesting. It manufacture free radicals, that "eat" the cell membrane and thus control its cell cycle and also the immune system through the molecular cascades made of eikosanoides.

Free radicals is extremely poisonous to the cell. Why on earth do the cell manufacture such things? For what purpose? Immune system is one, but surely not the whole. Another is perhaps for the nerve pulse. An electron-beam?

The nerve cell has the ability to mobilize these mitochondrions where they are needed the most.

Aging depends much on healthy mitochondrions and a good production of radicals. If one consider the effort it costs for the cell, all antioxidants needed, that is surprising.

What exactly is the antioxidant paradox, that is too much antioxidants means a lower efficiency, and more errors elapse the control.

Could you also say something about ozone at low high. It damages the chlorophyll/leaves. Burning it. Mechanisms?

Just wondering.

At 1:16 AM, Blogger Zephir said...

Water molecules could be splitted by resonance mechanism with no dark photons involved.

At 1:33 AM, Blogger Zephir said...

The flame definitelly doesn't contain large amount of oxygen: this gas remains dissolved in water, or (more preferably) remains stored in form of hydrogen peroxide.

At 2:34 AM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

To Zephyr:

Resonance mechanism sounds good idea and is good idea if you can point out what it is. Resonance is involved also with dark photon mechanism (resonant interaction with the condensate of dark cyclotron photons which are basic building brick in TGD based model of living matter).

The resulting water is modified in the sense that Raman spectrum is modified at frequencies in the range between .37-.44 eV (I do not know how convincing the interpretation in terms of Raman spectrum is). These are energies relevant to photosynthesis and genuine burning of water. How radio photons can effectively transform to visible ones. This is the question.

Still one point. I learned from lectures of Cyril Smith years ago about empirically motivated hypothesis that water memory involves a transformation of low frequency photons to high frequency ones with a preferred frequency ratio 2*10^11. The mechanism could be basically the same.

At 2:57 AM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

To Ulla:

The kicking of electrons to smaller space-time sheet loads metabolic batteries in TGD Universe. The dropping of electrons back liberates metabolic energy. These processes occur all the time in ADP<-->ATP "Karma's" cycle.

Unfortunately, this kicking also induces 2H2O-->H2O2+H2 and very probably also other processes unavoidably producing highly reactive reaction products. The generation of these harmful reaction products can be interpreted in terms of second law of thermodynamics: loading process involves some dissipation of energy to unintended purposes and increase of entropy and this leads to ageing. Antioxidants is the means of the organism to minimize these effects.

The fortunate aspect is that hydrogen peroxide can be used by the immune system to kill harmful bacteria as Mae-Wan Ho tells in one of the articles.

Two links to free radical theory:

Free radicals and your health.

Free radical theory.

At 5:24 PM, Blogger Zephir said...

/*..if you can point out what it is...*/
Indeed. In my opinion it's a low frequency analogy of antiStokes dispersion, which leads to spliting of watter molecules. As a mechanical analogy of this phenomena can serve Astroball toy or jet formation during watter splash - but you can find some simulations of it here.


What makes such hypothesis relevant for water shape memory and other interesting anomalies is water cluster concept. The "super rebound" effect requires mutual collisions of relativelly large chunks of water, which can absorb just at the radiowave scale.

Briefly speaking, just because water is composed of large clusters of quantum "jelly", the mutual collisions of these pieces can lead to nanocavitation and splitting off water molecules during their mutual collisions.

At 5:41 PM, Blogger Zephir said...

/*.. how convincing the interpretation in terms of Raman spectrum is */
Indeed it is. There are two types of Raman scattering, Stokes scattering and anti-Stokes scattering. I do believe, anti-Stokes scattering should take place, if we want to explain, how we can split tough water molecule by rather subtle energy density of radio waves. Energy in 0.44 eV range isn't sufficient for splitting of watter into hydrogen and oxygen, but may be sufficient for splitting of watter into hydrogen and hydrogen peroxide - which is exactly, what we are observing during radiowave splitting: resulting hydrogen flame is apparently of low oxygen content.

The beauty of the radiowave electrolysis is in fact, it enables to prepare two valuable components of water without electrodes, diaphragms and corrosion effect, which leads to reduction of peroxide content. Furthemore we can expect a strong isotope effect here, which may become significant for heavy water production.

Therefore I do believe, the splitting of watter by radiowaves can have a great future - despite it doesn't allow to produce fuel in cheaper way, then the classical electrolysis.

At 5:45 PM, Blogger Zephir said...

/*...dark photon mechanism ..*/
I don't understand that concept. Is it related to hydrino theory?

At 7:17 PM, Blogger Matti Pitkanen said...

To Zephir:

I understood that you propose that the scattering in question is Raman scattering but with photons with radio wave frequencies.

The evidence for Raman scattering is however observed at frequencies of order 10^14 Hz: 10^8 times higher frequencies so that your model fails. The transformation radiowave photons to their dark variants and back to IR photons with large Planck constant to ordinary photons would lead also to Raman scattering in ordinary sense.

Dark photon mechanism is one particular application of the TGD based notion of dark matter realized as a hierarchy of phases with Planck constant which can have arbitrarily high values. The empirical motivations for the hypothesis come from several sources. Approximate Bohr quantization of planetary orbits with gigantic Planck constant is one motivation. The effects of ELF emf fields on living matter with photon energies corresponding to frequencies of order 10 Hz and thus completely masked by thermal noise for ordinary value of Planck constant. Also quantum Hall effect could serve as motivation.

In quantum TGD the hierarchy of Planck constants means generalization of what one means with the 8-D imbedding space H=M^4xCP_2 in which space-times are surfaces. H is replaced with a book like structure having as pages the almost copies of H. The basic implication is understanding of dark matter and energy. Dark matter plays decisive role in TGD based understanding of living matter: phases with large hbar define macroscopic quantum phases controlling ordinary matter.

At 12:13 AM, Blogger Jason said...

Friday, July 30, 2010
Matti Pitkanen:
I thought that water is ash of hydrogen. The hydrogen burned and it’s burning caused the oxygenation of the hydrogen … now we have the result of burning: oxygenated-hydrogen or water. We cannot burn what is already burnt, or can we? The 13.56 MHz radio frequency radiation cannot burn the H2 again, can it? What happens at photosynthesis is not the burning of water, but a burning-reversal reduction or the de-oxygenation of some of the hydrogen. I am glad that 3three years go Dan Nocera developed an easier and cheaper process for unburning hydrogen. Now, Nate Lewis is hopping to run with what Dan gave us. I wish him well. However, the unfitting contradictory language used (“burning water”) to express the progress of the project and the use of the dark-side of the force (you talked about “dark photons”) are dizzying. Let’s not confuse the guys at the research center. Thank you.
Jason Livanos—


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