Sunday, June 28, 2009

Genes and Water Memory

After long time I had opportunity to read a beautiful experimental article. Not about the latest dramatic experimental breakthroughs in proving F theory to be the only possible theory of everything and even more;-) but about experimental biology. Yolene Thomas, who worked with Benveniste, kindly sent the article to me. The freely loadable article is Electromagnetic Signals Are Produced by Aqueous Nanostructures Derived from Bacterial DNA Sequences by Luc Montagnier, Jamal Aissa, Stéphane Ferris, Jean-Luc Montagnier, and Claude Lavallée published in the journal Interdiscip. Sci. Comput. Life Sci. (2009).

1. Basic findings at cell level

I try to list the essential points of the article. Apologies for biologists: I am not a specialist.

  1. Certain pathogenic micro-organisms are objects of the study. The bacteria Mycoplasma Pirum and E. Choli belong to the targets of the study. The motivating observation was that some procedures aimed at sterilizing biological fluids can yield under some conditions the infectious micro-organism which was present before the filtration and absent immediately after it. For instance, one filtrates a culture of human lymphocytes infected by M. Pirum, which has infected human lymphocytes to make it sterile. The filters used have 100 nm and 20 nm porosities. M. Pirum has size of 300 nm so that apparently sterile fluids results. However if this fluid is incubated with a mycoplasma negative culture of human lymphocytes, mycoplasma re-appears within 2 or 3 weeks! This sounds mysterious. Same happens as 20 nm filtration is applied to a a minor infective fraction of HIV, whose viral particles have size in the range 100-120 nm.

  2. These findings motivated a study of the filtrates and it was discovered that they have a capacity to produce low frequency electromagnetic waves with frequencies in good approximation coming as the first three harmonics of kHz frequency, which by the way plays also a central role in neural synchrony. What sounds mysterious is that the effect appeared after appropriate dilutions with water: positive dilution fraction varied between 10-7 and 10-12. The uninfected eukaryotic cells used as controls did not show the emission. These signals appeared for both M. Pirum and E. Choli but for M. Pirum a filtration using 20 nm filter canceled the effect. Hence it seems that the nano-structures in question have size between 20 and 100 nm in this case.

    A resonance phenomenon depending on excitation by the electromagnetic waves is suggested as an underlying mechanism. Stochastic resonance familiar to physicists suggests itself and also I have discussed it while developing ideas about quantum brain (see this). The proposed explanation for the necessity of the dilution could be kind of self-inhibition. Maybe a gel like phase which does not emit radiation is present in sufficiently low dilution but is destroyed in high dilutions after which emission begins. Note that the gel phase would not be present in healthy tissue. Also a destructive interference of radiation emitted by several sources can be imagined.

  3. Also a cross talk between dilutions was discovered. The experiment involved two tubes. Donor tube was at a low dilution of E. Choli and "silent" (and carrying gel like phase if the above conjecture is right). Receiver tube was in high dilution (dilution fraction 10-9) and "loud". Both tubes were placed in mu-metal box for 24 hours at room temperature. Both tubes were silent after his. After a further dilution made for the receiver tube it became loud again. This could be understood in terms of the formation of gel like phase in which the radiation does not take place. The effect disappeared when one interposed a sheath of mu-metal between the tubes. Emission of similar signals was observed for many other bacterial specials, all pathogenic. The transfer occurred only between identical bacterial species which suggests that the signals and possibly also frequencies are characteristic for the species and possibly code for DNA sequences characterizing the species.

  4. A further surprising finding was that the signal appeared in dilution which was always the same irrespective of what was the original dilution.

2. Experimentation at gene level

The next step in experimentation was performed at gene level.

  1. The killing of bacteria did not cancel the emission in appropriate dilutions unless the genetic material was destroyed. It turned out that the genetic material extracted from the bacteria filtered and diluted with water produced also an emission for sufficiently high dilutions.

  2. The filtration step was essential for the emission also now. The filtration for 100 nm did not retain DNA which was indeed present in the filtrate. That effect occurred suggests that filtration destroyed a gel like structure inhibiting the effect. When 20 nm filtration was used the effect disappeared which suggests that the size of the structure was in the range 20-100 nm.

  3. After the treatment by DNAse enzyme inducing splitting of DNA to pieces the emission was absent. The treatment of DNA solution by restriction enzyme acting on many sites of DNA did not suppress the emission suggesting that the emission is linked with rather short sequences or with rare sequences.

  4. The fact that pathogenic bacteria produce the emission but not "good" bacteria suggests that effect is caused by some specific gene. It was found that single gene - adhesin responsible for the adhesion of mycoplasma to human cells- was responsible for the effect. When the cloned gene was attached to two plasmids and the E. Choli DNA was transformed with the either plasmid, the emission was produced.

3. Some consequences

The findings could have rather interesting consequences.

  1. The refinement of the analysis could make possible diagnostics of various diseases and suggests bacterial origin of diseases like Alzheimer disease, Parkinson disease, Multiple Sclerosis and Rheumatoid Arthritis since the emission signal could serve as a signature of the gene causing the disease. The signal can be detected also from RNA viruses such as HIV, influenza virus A, and Hepatitis C virus.

  2. Emission could also play key role in the mechanism of adhesion to human cells making possible the infection perhaps acting as a kind of password.

The results are rather impressive. Some strongly conditioned skeptic might have already stopped reading after encountering the word "dilution" and associating it with a word which no skeptic scientist in his right mind should not say aloud: "homeopathy"! By reading carefully what I wrote above, it is easy to discover that the experimenters unashamedly manufactured a homeopathic remedy out of the filtrate! And the motivating finding was that although filtrate should not have contained the bacteria, they (according to authors), or at least the effects caused by them, appeared within weeks to it! This is of course impossible in the word of skeptic.

The next reaction of the skeptic is of course that this is fraud or the experimenters are miserable crackpots. Amusingly, one of the miserable crackpots is Nobelist Luc Montagnier whose research group discovered AIDS virus.

4. How TGD could explain the findings?

Let us leave the raging skeptics for a moment and sketch possible explanations in TGD framework.

  1. Skeptic would argue that the filtration allowed a small portion of infected cells to leak through the filter. Many-sheeted space-time suggests a science fictive variant of this explanation. During filtration part of the infected cells is "dropped" to large space-time sheets and diffused back to the original space-time sheets during the next week. This would explain why the micro-organisms were regenerated within few weeks. Same mechanism could work for ordinary molecules and explain homeopathy. This can be tested: look whether the molecules return back to the the diluted solution in the case of a homeopathic remedy.

  2. If no cells remain in the filtrate, something really miraculous looking events are required to make possible the regeneration of the effects serving as the presence of cells. This even in the case that DNA fragments remain in the filtrate.

    1. The minimum option is that the presence of these structures contained only the relevant information about the infecting bacteria and this information coded in terms of frequencies was enough to induce the signatures of the infection as a kind of molecular conditioning. Experimentalists can probably immediately answer whether this can be the case.

    2. The most radical option is that the infecting bacteria were actually regenerated as experimenters claim! The information about their DNA was in some form present and was transcribed to DNA and/or RNA, which in turn transformed to proteins. Maybe the small fragment of DNA (adhesin) and this information should have been enough to regenerate the DNA of the bacterium and bacterium itself. A test for this hypothesis is whether the mere nanoparticles left from the DNA preparation to the filtrate can induce the regeneration of infecting molecules.

The notion of magnetic body carrying dark matter quantum controlling living matter forms the basic element of TGD inspired model of quantum biology and suggests a more concrete model. For a possible experimental support for the notion see the earlier posting.

  1. If the matter at given layer of the onion-like structure formed by magnetic bodies has large hbar, one can argue that the layer corresponds to a higher evolutionary level than ordinary matter with longer time scale of memory and planned action. Hence it would not be surprising if the magnetic bodies were able to replicate and use ordinary molecules as kind of sensory receptors and motor organs. Perhaps the replication of magnetic bodies preceded the replication at DNA level and genetic code is realized already at this more fundamental level somehow. Perhaps the replication of magnetic bodies induces the replication of DNA as I have suggested.

  2. As I have discussed in my earlier postings and and in the books at my homepage, the magnetic body of DNA would make DNA a topological quantum computer (see this). DNA itself would represent the hardware and magnetic bodies would carry the evolving quantum computer programs realized in terms of braidings of magnetic flux tubes. The natural communication and control tool would be cyclotron radiation besides Josephson radiation associated with cell membranes acting as Josephson junctions. Cyclotron frequencies are indeed the only natural frequencies that one can assign to molecules in kHz range. There would be an entire fractal hierarchy of analogs of EEG making possible the communication with and control by magnetic bodies.

  3. The values of Planck constant would define a hierarchy of magnetic bodies which corresponds to evolutionary hierarchy and the emergence of a new level would mean jump in evolution. Gel like phases could serve as a correlate for the presence of the magnetic body. The phase transitions changing the value of Planck constant and scale up or down the size of the magnetic flux tubes. They are proposed to serve as a basic control mechanism making possible to understand the properties and the dynamics of the gel phases and how biomolecules can find each other in the thick molecular soup via a phase transition reducing the length of flux tubes connecting the biomolecules in question and thus forcing them to the vicinity of each other.

Consider now how this model could explain the findings.

  1. Minimal option is that the the flux tubes correspond to "larger space-time sheets" and the infected cells managed to flow into the filtrate along magnetic flux tubes from the filter. This kind of transfer of DNA might be made possible by the recently discovered nanotubes already mentioned.

  2. Maybe the radiation resulted as dark photons invisible for ordinary instruments transformed to ordinary photons as the gel phase assignable with the dark matter at magnetic flux tube network associated with the infected cells and corresponding DNA was destroyed in the filtration.

    This is not the only possible guess. A phase conjugate cyclotron radiation with a large value of Planck constant could also allow for the nanostructures in dilute solute to gain metabolic energy by sending negative energy quanta to a system able to receive them. Indeed the presence of ambient radiation was necessary for the emission. Maybe that for sufficiently dilute solute this mechanism allows to the nanostructures to get metabolic energy from the ambient radiation whereas for the gel phase the metabolic needs are not so demanding. In the similar manner bacteria form colonies when metabolically deprived. This sucking of energy might be also part of the mechanism of disease.

  3. What could be the magnetic field inducing the kHz radiation as a synchrotron radiation?

    1. For instance, kHz frequency and its harmonics could correspond to the cyclotron frequencies of proton in magnetic field which field strength slightly above that for Earth's magnetic field (750 Hz frequency corresponds to field strength of BE, where BE/=.5 Gauss, the nominal strength of Earth's magnetic field). A possible problem is that the thickness of the flux tubes would be about cell size for Earth's magnetic field from flux quantization and even larger for dark matter with a large value of Planck constant. Of course, the flux tubes could make themselves thinner temporarily and leak through the pores.
    2. If the flux tube is assumed to have thickness of order 20-100 nm, the magnetic field for ordinary value of hbar would be of order .1 Tesla from flux quantization and in the case of DNA the cyclotron frequencies would not depend much on the length of DNA fragment since the it carries a constant charge density. Magnetic field of order .2 Tesla would give cyclotron frequency of order kHZ from the fact that the field strength of .2 Gauss gives frequency of about .1 Hz. This correspond to a magnetic field with flux tube thickness ≈ 125 nm, which happens to be the upper limit for the porosity. Dark magnetic flux tubes with large hbar are however thicker and the leakage might involve a temporary phase transition to a phase with ordinary value of hbar reducing the thickness of the flux tube. Perhaps some genes (adhesin) plus corresponding magnetic bodies representing DNA in terms of cyclotron frequencies depending slightly on precise weight of the DNA sequence and thus coding it correspond to the frequency of cyclotron radiation are the sought for nano-structures.

  4. While developing a model for homeopathy based on dark matter I ended up with the idea that dark matter consisting of nuclear strings of neutrons and protons with a large value of hbar and having thus a zoomed up size of nucleon could be involved. The really amazing finding was that nucleons as three quark systems allow to realize vertebrate code in terms of states formed from entangled quarks (see this and this and also the earlier posting)! One cannot decompose codons to letters as in the case of the ordinary genetic code but codons are analogous to symbols representing entire words in Chinese. The counterparts of DNA, RNA, and aminoacids emerge and genetic code has a concrete meaning as a map between quantum states.

    Without any exaggeration this connection between dark hadronic physics and biology has been one of the greatest surprises of my professional life. It suggests that dark matter in macroscopic quantum phase realizes genetic code at the level of nuclear physics and biology only provides one particular (or probably very many as I have proposed) representations of it. If one takes this seriously one can imagine that genetic information is represented by these dark nuclear strings of nanoscopic size and that there exists a mechanism translating the dark nuclei to ordinary DNA and RNA sequences and thus to biological matter. This would explain the claimed regeneration of the infected cells.

  5. Genetic code at dark matter level would have far reaching implications. For instance, living matter - or rather, the magnetic bodies controlling it - could purposefully perform genetic engineering. This forces me to spit out another really dirty word, "Lamarckism"! We have of course learned that mutations are random. The basic objection against Lamarckism is that there is no known mechanism which would transfer the mutations to germ cells. In the homeopathic Universe of TGD the mutations could be however performed first for the dark nucleon sequences. After this these sequences would diffuse to germ cells just like homeopathic remedies do, and after this are translated to DNA or RNA and attach to DNA.

We are living exciting times. If someone wants to share this experience with me, she or he can can consult the chapter Homeopathy in Many-Sheeted Space-Time of Bio-Systems as Conscious Holograms where also the nuclear realization of the genetic code is discussed. If the word "hopeopathy" in the title is too much for the stomach of the reader, he can consult also the chapter Nuclear String Model of p-Adic length Scale Hypothesis and Dark Matter Hierarchy.


AK said...

Thank you!

Very interesting findings.

It seems that we slowly get the needed measuring techniques...which in the end should also convince the last sceptic...



donkerheid said...

Hello Matti!

Maybe a month ago I read a book on the shortcomings of (neo)Darwinian evolution (by Wolfgang Kuhn). It mentioned that information and the fact that information never comes without intelligence are unjustifiably neglected in the current picture of evolution. I was pondering on information, programs, fractals in evolution, whether they might be very important. I thought what if evolution is mental in essence and the really important processes occur somewhere else, unseen!

I'm aware that my knowledge is very scarce, but it brought TGD in my mind and I speculated this way: if biological body is a sensory receptor and motor instrument of the magnetic bodies, and biological bodies only carry out intentional actions, they could carry out 'evolutionary thoughts' too, maybe some kind evolutionary, creative problem solving on the long term.
There are loads of examples where the idea of gradual development is just useless, because only the final state (many times remarkably complicated) is functional, this is why natural selection is meaningless between the in-between states. But irreducible complexity is dismissed (well, it is rather arrogantly ridiculized) on the grounds that structures like these have evidently evolved from other structures, but we don't know exactly how :). Cunning.

The book brings up the flowers of some orchids as examples, and I think they really look like creative solutions to a problem.
Is it possible in your view, that let's say the above mentioned flower is in essence a materialized thought?

What really astonishes me is that what a relief this could mean! We could simply get rid of all those far-fetched and idiotic evolutionary scenarios that cannot even be falsified, and replace them with something elegant and meaningful! :-)

As far as I can, I have tried to imagine what magnetic bodies and p-adic cognitive space-time sheets might be like, but I've realized that I can't even tell them apart :). Could you write briefly some explanation of them?

[at the end of your post you wrote that we are living exciting times, and soon after "hope-opathy", I liked this slip-up very much :))).]

thank you and all the best,

Matti Pitkänen said...

Dear Gabor,

magnetic body is easier to explain. You have probably seen a visualization of a dipole magnetic field. Field lines emerge from North pole and go to south pole. In TGD these lines are replaced with flux tubes. But not flux tubes in the same sense that already Faraday imagined. These tubes are 3-D surfaces in 8-D space-time, sub-Universes which end at their surface. You can also think magnetic walls etc.

The first essential point is that magnetic field decomposes into well defined structures and one can assign to each physical system field identity - magnetic body, Or more generally field body: same happens for electric field and also radiation fields (topological light rays). One can visualize a physical system as a kind of plant. Biological body is the seed and the field body is the plant which the seed does not see.

What is also essential is the complex topology of these flux tubes: they can be knotted and linked. This allows topological representation of information and the model for living system as quantum computer relies on this kind of linking and knotting (braiding).

To be continued.

Matti Pitkänen said...

Dear Gabor,

p-adicization is more difficult to explain. Rational numbers are the starting point. You get the continuum of reals by adding to rationals all algebraic numbers (roots of polynomial equations with rational coefficients) and also trascendentals like e and pi.

You get from rationals also other number fields by completion to continuum but in different manner. p-Adic numbers are obtained by different completion involving different notion of magnitude characterized in terms of norm. One number field for each prime p -p-adic number field- and infinite number of algebraic extensions of this field. For this norm numbers p^n, n-->infinity are zero rather than infinite as in case of real norm. This means that most p-adic integers are infinite as real integers.

You get also now p-adic algebraics and p-adic transcendentals and different kind of continua. You get also infinite number of algebraic extensions: for reals just complex numbers. Extremely rich structure results.

By construction rational numbers and also some algebraics are common to reals and p-adic numbers. This intersection property generalizes to the level of real and p-adic imbedding space and space-time surfaces. The common points represent the intersection of reality and p-adicitities. p-Adicities represent correlates of thoughts and intentionality in the proposed interpretation, which might be of course criticized and I am myself questioning it! For instance, fermion states in zero energy ontology provide beautiful representation for Boolean statements and rules A-->B and it might be that only intentionality has p-adic space-time sheets as correlates).

These common points are crucial for mediating the interaction between these reality and various p-adicities. That discrete set of points is in question conforms with the fact that all cognitive representations as mathematician understands and interpreted as something belonging to the intersections of the reality and p-adicity are discrete.

What the p-adic counterpart of real physics is far from obvious and the basic idea is that the same idea of algebraic completion allows to get real and various p-adic physics from rational physics. Real and p-adic quantum worlds intersect only through space-time surfaces which allow interpretation either as p-adic or real space-time surface so that all data needed to represent them is expressible in terms of rational numbers and possibly some algebraics. In other words the surfaces can be expressed in terms of algebraic equations with rational coefficients. The notion of rationality is abstracted to the notion of polynomials with rational coefficients.

By the way, I have used somewhat non-logically the term "magnetic body as intentional agent" and "p-adic space-time sheets as correlates for intentions and actions". This has perhaps caused the confusion that you mention. I think that I began to use "magnetic body as intentional agent" before my interpretation of p-adic space-time sheets stabilized. The purpose of the terminology was to emphasize the idea that conscious control can be assigned with magnetic bodies rather than biological bodies.

I conclude this long brief explanation by adding some confusion: magnetic bodies of course have also p-adic counterparts!


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Ulla said...

Matti, this is quite a lot also for a biologist:-). This is - WOW!!!

The first thing I thought of was an old mystery - the Gurwitsch morphogenetic field. Mitogenic radiation was another mystery, described by ex. Kaznacheyev's cytopatogenic mirror effect. If two cultures stood next to each other in own cuvettes, the one with a quarts glass was infected, with no other interference than "sight". Biophotonic emission was the source? Popp has later done much research on this, see for ex.

In botany plants exponed to microbes react by emitting a signal that will activate the immune response in other plants of the same species. The plants are warning their fellow partners.

Sick cells emit a (negative) signal. Popp speculates as follows: ( Carcinogenic substances in tissues absorb light, and this absorption interfere with the normal growth and repair regulation. Only this light absorption is demanded, and he asks the question whether metabolism at all is required. The degree of coherence of the biophoton field within the organism should be the important one, and he associates with excited DNA.

Janusz Slawinski,, talks about necrotic radiation, accompanying an irreversible perturbation of biohemostasis of a living organism is holistically integrated with the Omega-Point cosmological theory, and occurs mainly with an oscillatory character. Conformational changes in the superhelices of DNA and radical chain reactions in the lipid membranes, that leads to the decrease in the photon storage capacity and an increased emission. Also the nuclear membrane shows to be important. If one assume that the signal is a kind of the electromagnetic holographic replica of the dying organism alike a multidimensional wave packet, then, this replica personality exists in the timeless dimension. Since the metrical time does not flow for a photon, this may be considered as an immortality.

Is this arguments for the necessity of the information conservation of the all virtual equivalent personalities till the omega-P in order to evaluate their accomplishments and usefulness for the cosmic evolution. Life/death or as you say, the magnetic body.

This is guite something, you Matti! Suits TGD very well. See how your pulse runs high :-)

On light behavior in fractal tissues, in multicomponent solutions in conditions of gel formation , in liquid media near the crystallization threshold etc. Here the localization occures in folds of fractal surface separating phase or components. Due to the high concentration, the electromagnetic field localized in primary folds of the surfaces causes a further corrugation of the surface separating the components. Then, new photons localize in these new folds etc.
A similar «folded» system are widely spreaded in biology. And the long distance correlations in an arrangement of the folds result to independence of many characteristics of the system from its material. Also the problem concerning the existence of a wave genetic code... You know I have talked about that.

Is this teleportation???

As a small comment: HIV can exist and transinfect in small parts of the virus. It enters the brain. Also priones do. Filtering alone is not enough. Sterilizing was done too. Was that enough?

Matti Pitkänen said...

Gurwich's mitogenetic field, Popp's biophotons, and Gariaev's and others findings about effect of visible light on living matter would combine to form one bigger story. Em radiation at widely different frequency ranges (UV, visible, IR, microwaves, radio waves (kHz frequency in the example discussed) frequencies would be used to quantum control and communicate if the hierarchy of "EEG"s is realized. The book Biosystems as Conscious Holograms summarizes the proposed picture. For instance, the kHz frequency and its harmonics detected in the recent experiment would be important also for neural synchrony. The key idea would be that hbar is large so that energies could be above thermal threshold and radiation would have strong effects.

Thank you for the abstract, I add the link here too: The localization into the folds of fractal structure is new to me.Alternative pictures are photons confined inside magnetic flux tubes or inside topological light rays parallel and attached to flux tubes.

The localization might well be involved and have counterpart in TGD framework with fractality related to quantum criticality with respect to phase transitions changing Planck constant crucial for the behavior of living matter in TGD Universe. I try to explain.

a) The mathematical realization for the hierarchy of Planck constants requires a generalization of the 8-D imbedding space. One obtains a book like structure (very loosely) in which different pages of correspond to almost copies of 8-D imbedding space.

b) The folds of fractal surfaces could correspond to the back of the book and to one-dimensional lines at 3-D space-time surface. The back itself represents quantum critical phase at which phase transitions can changing Planck constant can occur meaning that particles leak between the pages of the book like structure.

c) Living matter is exceptionally quantum critical and the phase transitions changing Planck constant would be behind the basic behaviors of gel phase (contractions and expansions). The transformation making photons visible would mean leakage to the page corresponding to the ordinary value of hbar.

d) This description of localization could be consistent with the descriptions I mentioned first.

I see no compelling connection with teleportation or with Omega point. The UV emission from dying cells could have many interpretations. For instance, as a leakage of dark photons transforming to ordinary UV photons with much higher frequency as coherence is lost.
Or if negative energy photons are involved as a desperate attempt to gain metabolic energy by sending a burst of negative energy photons to some system able to absorb them.

Ulla said...

This will go somewhat beyond the theme.

The folds of fractal surfaces could correspond to the back of the book with phase transitions by aid of photons. That is electrons. (This brings microtubules in mind, lining the cell membrane. And mitochondrions and radicals.)

Electrons are one part of the harmony. The other part is the protone. Electrones are quantum entangled in atoms and molecules, the whole body, also supergenomes. That means they interfere, or communicate.
If piezoelectric tissues gets electrons from light in a diurnal rhytm, this will switch on/off metabolic systems too. And creates a need to get rid of electrons/photones as emission. That is communication with other systems. If that emission is UV-light it lies on the sensitivity frequency (about 300 Hz) for DNA, and will change it. The emission is very weak, so the changes are probably not mutagenic, but perhaps enough to switch on/off some orchestrated events.

Earlier you had a story about synchronized EEG-patterns in jazz musicians.

Em radiation at widely different frequency ranges (UV, visible, IR, microwaves, radio waves frequencies would be used to quantum control and communicate the hierarchy of "EEG"s. That is of course our senses that we can use to control our EEG (eg. to disturb it). Eg. it is on the countrary our senses that has developed because of the harmony windows already existing. The base is the protone-electrone interferens (again about 300 Hz?) and the earthpulse, but the role of alpha- beta and gammadecay?

You have also mentioned Josephson currents in the soliton as the back of the book. Frequency 3-5 Hz. The soliton is light or sound or both? Frequency in kHz. (Two different waves, and there can be even a third wave in the pulse.) If we assume that the frequency could change according to information? Becker demonstrated an analog pulse in the nerve pulse too (in the connective tissue part of the nerve) that could contain the information. Generally the pulse is considered an "all or nothing", that is digital. The different pulses are added to one signal.

When the electrical current stops there are created a stronger magnetic field. This happens in the body in joints, ex. the knee. But this magnetic field is not depending on the nerve pulse, but on the water perhaps. Or the piezoelectric flow in gap junctions. Sometimes I read of virus having a magnetic memory. And if these memories can be stored in our body as magnetic fields they are conserved by frequencies, say delta or theta. You must use that same frequency that once created the memory to reach these old memories. Babies has another type of frequency than adults, so that's why we can't remember our earliest childhood.

These frequencies or fields can be added one upon the other as a sandwitch, or as you say, a book. We can read past times through the frequency window, that is fractal.

Your magnetic body is conscious and not just a field. But I can't grasp this conservation idea. How is it done? This question is essential for the functioning of homeopathy f.ex.

A acupunture hole is fractal in structure (spiral with an apex) and leads light into the body by aid of chiral molecules. The light is trapped within the molecule and is released when the molecule change. Ex. receptor proteins function in this way. A light releaser?

Well, I have studied your theory quite long, and something I have learnt, but still there is very much left to learn. It is so complex, as it of course has to be. Let this be enough for this time.

Does this reasoning make sense to you?

Matti Pitkänen said...

You seem to confuse frequencies. Very low frequencies correspond to cyclotron frequencies in magnetic field and its intensity can can vary. .2 Gauss is the value explaining old findings about effects of ELF photons on brain tissue and behavior.
UV photons are totally different: frequencies around 10^14 Hz. Josephson frequencies for cell membrane are for ordinary value of hbar are in infrared. For large hbar these frequencies decrease as 1/hbar whereas energy does not depend on hbar for given Josephson voltage.

The memory mechanism in TGD is quite different from the standard one so that there is no absolute need to conserve memories. Even storing of memories is un-necessary unless one wants safety copies.

"Memories" are in geometric past, in the simplest case in space-time region where the event happened and can be retrieved by communications to geometric past using negative energy signals reflected back. This is just like seeing using reflected light but in time direction. Also time like entanglement is possible and allows to share the experience of past: essentially re-experience the event.

The geometric past is changing quantum jump by quantum jump so that there is no absolute past in this sense. In principle editing of the painful memories is possible. As you know our memories are indeed rather unstable and therapies suggesting this kind of editing have been already suggested.

This picture does not make sense in standard physics ontology where the two times are identified boldly neglecting the fact that they differ in several crucial aspects. Somehow it is amusing that although already Einstein replaced 3-space with 4-D space-time the realization that our conscious experience is about 4-D space-time region is very difficult to accept. Perhaps because this requires a new view of time, quantum non-determinism in macroscopic time scales, and also the partial failure of exact classical determinism: all these occur naturally in zero energy ontology. It is also amusing that professional physicists are ready to claim that there is not time at all! Somehow many learned colleagues seem to be totally immune to facts that every schoolboy knows and everyone directly experiences;-)!

There are several delicate effects supporting this view: mention only Libet's findings. The most recent support comes from the finding that neurons in hippocampus regenerate quite rapidly. Several hundred neurons per day if I remember correctly. The link is

You actually sent it to me. The finding that hippocampal neutrons are infants does not conform with the dogma that hippocampal cells are very old men remembering what happened in their youth. The discovery has been characterized as revolutionary.

donkerheid said...

Dear Matti,

I read in your books, that living matter is ordinary matter controlled by dark matter, and ordinary matter is condensed around dark matter. (Where is dark matter then?:)Where does this enter the picture? And where is exactly a field body or how is it detectable?


Matti Pitkänen said...

Thank you for good questions. You have been reading carefully!

I have used book metaphor to express the basic idea about dark matter. 8-D imbedding space has a book like structure: almost copies of it with different hbar (hbar is like page number) glued along back together. This oversimplification, which should not be taken too literally, helps to understand.

Matters at various sheets interact via classical fields since gauge and gravitational fluxes can flow through the back between different pages. Also gauge bosons and gravitons can flow from page to another (hbar changing phase transition).

In this sense dark matter in TGD Universe interacts with ordinary matter unlike the dark matters of competing theories which interact only gravitationally or perhaps weakly. Darkness means in TGD that dark matter particles do not appear in same vertices of Feynman diagrams as particles of ordinary matter. To my best knowledge this is all what is needed to explain what we know about dark matter. Dark matter is highly structured and in so called anyonic phase essentially 2-dimensional. These 2-D surfaces carrying dark matter are in many respects like black hole horizons but have extremely complex topology and geometry and are also much larger forming a kind of fractal Indra's net.

Gravitational interaction between concentrations of dark matter tend to be around 2-D surfaces as in so called anyonic systems. Hence gravitational attraction tends to drive both dark matter and ordinary matter near the back of the book: this means quantum criticality crucial for the emergence of intelligence and life. The prediction is quantization effects for the dynamics of ordinary matter. For instance, the radii of planetary orbits are quantized. This puzzling finding about both solar planets and known exoplanets suggesting the existence of quantum coherence in astrophysical length scales actually boosted the though process leading to the recent picture.


You might ask what then differentiates between ordinary matter and dark matter. Is there some specific value of Planck constant making matter "ordinary". There is: the most general prediction for Planck constant is that hbar corresponds to a rational number m/n and ordinary matter corresponds to m/n=1.

There are number theoretically favored values of hbar: the phases exp(i(n/m)2pi)= are number theoretically simple for certain rationals m/n and this suggests for them a preferred physical role assuming that the evolution of intelligence in universe corresponds to quantum jumps recreating it again and again as a more complex version containing more and more information about what the previous universe was. The creative feedback loop of consciousness. The conscious Universe would be a mathematician. Mathematicians as images of God would be much more than those passive nerds stumbling around and missing all the time themselves or at least their eye glasses;-)!

This quantal emergence of increasingly complex mathematical structures means also the emergence of physical realizations of increasingly complex algebraic extensions of p-adic numbers. Universe "discovers" increasingly complex algebraic numbers and perhaps also transcendentals. The simplest ones emerged first and should be visible in physics. Hence simple rationals m/n.

donkerheid said...

I'll have to learn a huge amount of things to really comprehend this, but I read it through several times and it sounds fantastic :).
If everything seems to be mathematics, geometry, topology, physics as number theory, space interpreted as numbers if I can remember well, and even God is a mathematician, what is that really exists? As I understood, the development of the Universe is in principle development of mathematical ideas which is accompanied by physical realizations, but physics is a generalized number theory, so mathematics again. What is it that we call 'real' then? What can I actually see when I look at my hand, for instance?

Another thing is that if we want to explain something, we have to bring into the picture something else, so some concepts inevitably remain unexplained, and this seems to be a barrier for the entire scientific reasoning, I mean Newton had no answer for what gravity really is. Can this be circumvented, and is an absolute TOE possible?

Matti Pitkänen said...

I see the quantum states of the Universe as mathematical ideas and the mathematician - or better to say just the conscious experience- as the quantum jump between these ideas.

Mathematician as biological system would exist only as an illusion: intense sensory input from some space-time region creates the illusion "I am that space-time region".

One can distinguish between existences to various kinds. Mathematical ideas, the quantum states, would represent non-conscious existence. Quantum jumps between them would be conscious existence. Gods - or the entire fractal hierarchy of gods- would be wandering (I typed first "wondering"!) in the space of states of Universe and evolution would mean that they become more and more complex providing representation about previous quantum states. Consciousness would mean recreation of the Universe, something between the material worlds obeying laws of physics.

One could also speak about geometric existence represented by classical physics and providing very abstract symbolic representations for the contents of consciousness at space-time level in terms of field patterns, particles, geometric objects, etc.. This is how we can concretely represent the deeper quantum reality.

Maybe TOE is possible in the sense that certain basic laws are more or less final. There is however infinite richness of structure by Goedel's theorem so that Universe becomes an endlessly evolving TOE.

Ulla said...

Very interesting philosophings... I like philosophy very much indeed. And myths.

But this is something that will continue my earlier response.

I have recently heard about some research on brain cells, that the brain renew itself much more than we had thougt. Brain is a very special tissue, thought to be incapable to regenerate. This is not true. We just have to go "round the table" first. As in the cancer-question.

Here is some remarks. First one from june this year,

"We triggered rapid neurodegeneration in the brains of mice, and it was immediately followed by a very rapid regenerative response. We wanted to know why this response could occur so effectively after acute neurodegeneration.

"On further investigation, we found high levels of a molecule known as Activin A whenever regeneration occurred. This was especially interesting because Activin A is released from nerve cells.

"Clearly Activin A was playing an important part in the regenerative process, so we triggered neurodegeneration and at the same time blocked Activin A. The difference was dramatic. Regeneration all but ground to a halt."

And another from mars., Gerd Kempermann of the CRTD.

Throughout a lifetime new nerve cells are created from these brain stem cells, for example granular cells just a few micrometers wide. With the help of mathematical models, the researchers believe that these emerge in a specific region of the hippocampus (Gyrus dendatus). However, the exact function of these stem-cell-produced granular cells in the adult hippocampus has been unclear.

by using granular cells, the brain can comprehend changing environments, register changes in known environments, and record these in relation to other experiences – i.e. the brain learns instead of relying on older states of knowledge. the role of granular cells in qualitative aspects of learning.

The treated mice searched for a long time around the old site, while the untreated animals adapted much quicker to the new situation. The scientists concluded that the lack of newborn granular cells was responsible for this discrepancy.

Read the article at:,did=96280.html?listBlId=74464& and as open access article at
Very interesting findings.

A third one according left/right assymmetry in the brain: Isao Ito of Kyushu University in Fukoka, Japan, Science, vol 300, 2003.

The left brain excels at analytical, more focused tasks, while the right brain does better at tasks that involve the "bigger picture", such as understanding metaphors and recognising faces.

one kind of receptor on nerve cells is distributed differently on the right and left sides of the hippocampus - gives a mirror effect.

About regeneration of nerve cells, see Mashanov,,
Tissue and Cell
Volume 40, Issue 5, October 2008, Pages 351-372

There should also be a news about nerve cells wandering around in the brain, just as Edelman once said. If I could find it. Quite new.

By the way, I found a new funny blog. Wanderings.
See here: Leading cause of death - Medical care!

Ulla said...

One more:

How do the stem cells measure the stiffness of their environment? Engler thinks that the answer is simple - they pull. Each cell has an internal skeleton of thin fibres that give it support (seen in white in the image on the right). These fibres touch the cell's outer layer at specific points, and the cell makes contact with its environment at these same points.

By exerting tension along these fibres, the cell can sense how elastic its surroundings are. This information is conveyed through a series of messenger molecules and tells the cell which path to take. It seems that even for stem cells, commitment comes only after a period of tension.

Guess microtubules are a big part of this, and quantum computation,perhaps giving rise to those nanotubes...

Ulla said...

This was a very interesting thread. Hope others think so too.

Moving images of how nerve cells, like social, swimming beings, seek out each other are now suggesting entirely new and breathtaking perspectives to researchers. How stem cell transplants do their work.

"The film is revolutionary in that it shows how auditory nerves develop: like social beings they explore their surroundings and find a partner. You can see how the nerves, without any direct contact, signal each other and, like ants in an anthill, help each other communicate and form a nerve node, a so-called ganglion,"

And an older one I think I have already sent you.

a protein called Wnt5, a member of a large family of signaling molecules, binds to a receptor called Derailed present on the surface of growing nerve cells.

This binding guides the tips of these nerve cells to their final destination by preventing them from entering the wrong pathway.

And so I stumbled over a very interesting one, concerning HIV:

researchers filmed individual HIV particles as they traveled to the nucleus of a human cell and began taking over its genetic machinery.

The virus can be seen traveling along a part of the host cell's own skeletal framework of microtubules as it makes its way from the outer membrane to the nucleus. The virus hitches a ride aboard a multi-unit protein called dynein,= a railroad. The virus is made of an outer shell, or envelope, and a core, referred to as a particle, which is composed of proteins and genetic material. When the virus attacks an immune cell, it fuses with the cell's membrane and releases its particle core inside.
The tiny particles, only about 12 millionths of a centimeter in diameter, have to cross a distance that is up to 500 times their size to reach the nucleus. Moreover, the way is blocked by all kinds of cellular structures.

They appear to jump from one microtubule to another, moving in a jagged path, even sometimes moving backward. At the periphery of the nuclei, the scientists saw the viruses form complexes with genetic material of the host cells.

To enter the brain they must pass straight through the cells.

donkerheid said...

Good lord! :-D
Mathematical ideas are very hard to grasp for me, it slips out between your fingers,just as consciousness. Do you mean that absolutely nothing we (it's strange to write 'we' after these:) sense as matter, exists in the Universe?
What do you think of TGD? :) Can you explain mathematical ideas, quantum jump,consciousness, space-time and what drives the development of the Universe in the framework of your theory or are these 'inputs' which's meaning can be refined by invoking something else?
Is it likely that TGD is the first genuine theory of everything?

It's very exciting to consider that everything could be explained. I usually think that the course of explanation closes back on itself somehow, devouring its tail like Ouroboros, but maybe that's too simplistic.
How do you imagine the moment, when the Universe's own theory is revealed to man?
and to go the farthest: will someone ever find out why our Universe exists, where its theory stems from, and the meaning of eternal development is? :).

I hope no one will consider me a total idiot with no life :)))

Matti Pitkänen said...

Dear Gabor,

I cannot see any need to postulate that there exists anything called matter if conscious experience is in the quantum jump between "solutions of field equations"/quantum states as mathematical objects.

The emergence of consciousness theorizing has had quite an impact to what I personally see as the basic goal of physics. I believe that this wider horizon could have extremely fruitful effect on theoretical physics lost into the swampland of M-theory landscape.

I really see the attempt to understand even the physical correlates of mathematical consciousness in terms of the evolution of these purely mathematical objects as a realistic goal of future physics. One must have the courage to think bigly.

I believe that every unified theorist believes of having found the first genuine theory of everything - kind of occupational disease;-). Not dangerous if the patient knows about the disease. Actually there is no fear that the universe's own theory will be revealed to man since each increases in understanding replaces the universe with a more complex one. Something is added to Everything, the representation for the theory of Everything;-). A new level of abstraction emerges the hierarchy of statements about statements about...

donkerheid said...

do you mean that the universe's theory is getting more and more by each quantum jump?

and are quantum jump and consciousness for instance the same as gravity is in Newton's theory?

Ulla said...

Consciousness grows. I new big step in evolution is taken, or as Matti says Plack's constant grows. But I think that is necessary now to handle all the stupid things man has created with his incompetent brain - nuclear technics for ex:-)

Thought I would give my opinion about matter. Of course without maths:-)

In religion there are good pictures about this. In India they have the metaphore Shivas danse and here we have Jesus and his crusifixion. Why would he do that? I'm sure it is not for our salavation, as the Church teaches us. That is simply nonsense - talk, a way to get a firm grasp of our soules. In my opinion he was crusified because he wanted to show us the illusion of matter. Although he died he was still living.

But I also think matter is essential. It is really no illusion, only that we think of matter as the only real thing, that's an illusion. It is matter that makes the difference. We can experience it in different ways.

Matter has two sides, this real side and that which is "not real", meaning immaterial. Matter and dark matter in my opinion, or the time-space in 4-D, but in different directions, giving a total of 8-D. That "other side" is our magnetic bodies that will live "forever" (time is different on the other side too). Our magnetic bodies is our emotions, experiences, all things that makes it worth "living". And that life is Shivas danse.

A metaphore: If you have money it is nothing worth on its own (real matter). It is only those beautiful things that you can get with it that matters (experiences).
Another metaphore: A guitar is only a thing if nobody plays on it. But it gives off a beautiful song if a force (you) moves its strings and the song will dispere in every direction. Guitar is the matter, the force is conscious magnetic body and the result is communication, evolution, experiences that will perhaps create a new consciousness mind. Without that string no song would ever have been created. And that's the difference.

In scifi there are a conscious cloud that can think. Is thinking possible without matter? Can computations be made without matter using dark materia only?

As a curiosa I read yesterday about a multiverse. The universe is created and destryed, but not completely, a little thing is left and it is then the seed for next universe. Indian mythology again.
Perhaps this famous Higgs will give us the answer. If this scene is true there will be no Higgs.

Hope I didn't mess it up again.

donkerheid said...

You mentioned crucifixion. Once I was chatting with one of my friends for hours about religion, and I had to realize, that Christianity is damn logical. I think, from inside its logic is impeccable, there is an explanation for everything, you only have to believe every part of it. If you do this, you think that you know the answer to everything. No doubt, it is a mythology, of course, you can't prove or disprove it. But they have an answer also to this, such as to everything else: your mind betrays you (we can be influenced, so also this is right:) and you are revolting, because Satan tries to detract you, since he gained power on Earth. Very cunning, indeed. Also crucifixion has a specific role and fits into the picture.
But I agree with you that religion holds a community together, by making its members think the same.
At least this is what I think about it.

(by the way I've always thought that 8D is because of CP2)


Ulla said...

Well, excuse me Matti for this. I didn't meant to be that involved in the debate:-)

Religion is logical??? They don't even know what logic is! Then I realized you talk about the same thing that makes me furious. Their evidenses goes in circles. And that circle is waterproof.

I have debated with priests some time, concerning women as priests. And that was something that learned me quite a lot about their logic. It is as you said, one has to believe. Otherwise it will be nothing left. That is a kind of brainwashing. They have also manufactured their "proofs" themselves. A sure way to win...

The benefit is just as you say, keeping society together. At cost of personal growing.

Well, the outcome of the debate was quite good for me. One after the other had to confess they didn't knew. And so was that ended:-)

Matti Pitkänen said...

Dear Gabor,

you asked

do you mean that the universe's theory is getting more and more by each quantum jump?

and are quantum jump and consciousness for instance the same as gravity is in Newton's theory?

Yes. Theory-reality duality disappears since there because mathematical structures do not describe possible realities but are the realities and when quantum jump leads to a new more complex mathematical structure new quantum jumps are needed to build description for it. Theory about theory is needed. Endless self reference loop.

One cannot identify quantum jumps (state function reduction) and consciousness with any physical interaction, neither gravitation or em or any other interaction. Or stating it otherwise: quantum states and space-time surfaces are zombies. Consciousness is in the nowhere land between two quantum states which are superpositions of space-time surfaces.

Gravitational interaction is however important in making possible quantum coherence possible in even astrophysical scales assuming that one accepts dark matter hierarchy: the value of Planck constant at space-time sheets mediating gravitational interaction is gigantic in the proposed model for planetary orbits.

Matti Pitkänen said...

To Ulla and Gabor:

I do not assign conscious mind to magnetic bodies, p-adic space-time sheets, some dimensions of the imbedding space (CP_2 factor), dark matter, or some particular interaction such as gravitation. This would be an attempt to describe consciousness as something belonging to the same category of geometrical objects, or mathematical objects in general as is done in dualistic theories. This leads to contradictions as Chalmers demonstrated long time ago (dualism leads to idealism or materialism). One would have also the basic problems related to of quantum measurement theory and mutually conflicting aspects of time, theory-reality duality, plus a number of more delicate paradoxes. The assumption that consciousness is between the realities allowing identification as mathematical objects resolves these paradoxes.

Only the prerequisites of macroscopic quantum phases allowing memory and planned action in long time scales relate to gravitation and dark matter.

8-dimensionality results because every point of 4-D Minkowski space is replaced with 4-D CP_2. The analogy is replacement of every point of line with circle to get cylinder.

The interpretation of crucifixion as a demonstration that biological death is only biological death represents to me the sane part of Christianity. Maybe Jesus Christ actually "came" from some level of dark matter hierarchy to this particular page of the Big Book, and added a new part to the Big Book of western culture;-).

Could the myth about father killing his son to save mankind represent a viral meme which infected Christianity later.

Ulla said...

"I do not assign conscious mind to magnetic bodies, p-adic space-time sheets, some dimensions of the imbedding space (CP_2 factor), dark matter, or some particular interaction such as gravitation. This would be an attempt to describe consciousness as something belonging to the same category of geometrical objects, or mathematical objects in general as is done in dualistic theories."

I must point out that your consciousness (physical) is not the same thing as my consciousness (biological). I have difficulties in interpreting the physical consciousness in biological meanings. So far the dance-metaphore suits me best. When the music (quantum jumps, awareness, information-collection) stops the dance will end (material death).

When we talk about biological bodies the music comes from outside to our senses. The music can be noise or have a meaning (we say information). Our body/nerves is able to sort noise out. But we dont't experience that at all as consciousness in biological terms. The informational (frequential) part is still divided in a real conscious part and a unconscious part, and the conscious part (that part we are aware of) is only 10% of the unconscious part. In that way only the really important quantum jumps are recorded. But they are recorded as frequencies, meaning em-fields. In our body lies a very narrow gate that pass on a very small fraction of the total quantal jumps (recordings).

Consciousness functions in our body as temperature and/or acidity. It has a very small window. Too low temperature and it will cease in negentropy, too high temperature and it will cease in entropy. It is in the phase-transitions, meaning growing Plancks constants. Now I see it, it is the phase-transitions that give the frequencies that is the music.

Memories are also information. And memories can also lie in the body. Memories can give restrictions to our conscious mind as illnesses in mind or body. One can say that our nerve system is holistic, giving holistic pictures.

You talked about editing memories. But if the memories lies in the unconscious part it is not possible. First they must be brought up from there. And when a phsychologist edits your memories they can be changed to false, induced memories, blocking the real memories which will still be there and "infect" your consciousness as an illness in mind. The same is true for childhood memories that mostly lies in our unconscious part.

In fact, every time you "remember" something the memory is changed a bit, depending on your present emotions etc. But from there to editing a childhood memory, blocked in your body as a fractal hologram, is a long step. It is very difficult to edit childhood, parents or still further back.

There is also another thing I have wondered about. In nanotechnology the characteristics of materia is quite different from this "real life". It is just as if the same natural laws isn't ruling there. Nanoparticles are too small? They are not representing the whole?

If we expands this thinking to ourselves, are we too small? Our representation of the world is not a representation of the whole possible world?

Matti Pitkänen said...

I have noticed that it is extremely difficult to get rid of the conceptual framework defined by the existing views about time. It is definitely wrong as is clear from the spectrum of paradoxes it creates.

Thinking about time seems to be hopelessly difficult as looking the fQXi essays about time demonstrate. Resolving the problem of time is not the manner to build beautiful career! Maybe this is why also the views of theoretical physicists views about time are usually extremely primitive.

If something new is proposed it is usually inspired by formalism relying on existing prejudices or by its failure. For instance, no-time at all philosophy emerged because canonical quantization of general relativity leads to a loss of time. The procedure is completely ad hoc application of a formalism working in atomic physics to the universe in all length scales and fails completely. Completely failing formalism was however taken more seriously than basic facts which we really known from everyday experience! This refusal to go back to the basics has been the basic characteristic of theoretical physics after the Golden Age of physics and manifests itself as the dead end called superstring models.

Also the learning a new way to think about time requires a lot of concentrated thinking. And maybe a kind of moment of enlightment. Perhaps a step to the next hbar in the personal hierarchy of Planck constants;-).


One should also define unconscious or sub-conscious properly. Only part of information, essentially the change, is what becomes conscious in quantum jump. The rest remains unconscious. Also physicist can study only the changes of physical system under small perturbations to obtain information about the system.

Maybe sub-conscious could be identified as conscious experiences but at the lower levels of self hierarchy and thus not directly conscious to us. Only the level just below is represented as mental images to us and would represent kind of averages about conscious experiences of subselves -assuming I believe in TGD inspired theory of consciousness. The information from even lower levels involves more averagings and could give kind of emotional grasp about situation, general feeling of how things are.

I see no reason to restrict conscious experience to some very special range of temperature and other parameters. The conscious experience which we have in wake-up state is very particular kind of consciousness able to build symbolic representations in terms of nerve pulse patterns,etc... This is what we see at the level of visible matter: what is at the level of dark matter is more or less a mystery.

Ulla said...

"learning a new way to think about time requires a lot of concentrated thinking. And maybe a kind of moment of enlightment. Perhaps a step to the next hbar in the personal hierarchy of Planck constants;-).

You say I'm stupid. Well, I feel stupid:-) Very much indeed.

"Only part of information, essentially the change, is what becomes conscious in quantum jump". That is the new information only.

The reason why memories are changed is exactly this. When your mind pick up a memory and uses it, it goes through the same process as new information. That means you use old bits side by side with new bits, and both are experienced as conscious. You say the memories are in another time, geometric time, only divided by a number of quantum jumps. You have access to them by past brain images (hippocampus is the gate?). But this picture can't be the whole of it.

"Only the prerequisites of macroscopic quantum phases allowing memory and planned action in long time scales relate to gravitation and dark matter."
What exactly does this mean?

There are a number of trials showing f.ex.that pictures showed to you for a fraction of a second are not recorded by your conscious mind, but they are recorded unconsciously. They will be there and influence on the choices you are doing. A trick used by marketing. This concerns also childhood memories. You don't have access to them by past brains, only by the brain that the very child once had. And to reach that special brain is difficult.

"I see no reason to restrict conscious experience to some very special range of temperature and other parameters."
Well, I thought of the phase-changes in the nerve pulse. Because your conscious mind rely on that, not on anything else, as I can see it. All sensory inputs and other inputs also from your own body are nerve pulses in the end. All em-fields or magnetic fields reaching the boby are translated to nerve pulses. Also all chemicals emitted or transmitted are em-fields that will change the nerve pulse.

There are a lot of phase-transitions in the cell, depending on membranes too. In essential nerve pulses. Even nanotubules are in essential cellmembranes.

The magnetic body is a reflexion of the body you have, an outgrowth of dark materia? Or on the countrary, the dark materia will influence on the patterns of your nerve pulse. You see, nerve pulse again. It is the gate to the consciousness, biologically spoken.

There is no difference which way this railroad goes.

If it is the magnetic body that is conscious and not your material body do no difference either. But I don't understand how you then can say the magnetic body has no emotions, no consciousness, if it is directing the body. (Yoy say dark materia and gravitation is only related to by consciousness). Is then that directing quantum jump made only by chance, by chaos, realized in the jump, done with no intention, no free will? Directed by morphogenic fields? That is customs, past times, geometric time? How is that dance made? What synchronizes it?

Or is it that it is the consciousness that is illusory?

What is collective consciousness? Collective mind. Is it collective magnetic bodies? Collective quantum jumps? Are war started by collective idiotic quantum jumps?

Personality then? Is it directed by an unconscious magnetic body? Are there a genuine nucleus or are everything only past brains or genetics? That I cannot imagine.

I realize I walk on thin ice. Your theory is a complex one, and I can understand your irritation. I look even more stupid now. And we have come far from the original subject. As usual.

Matti Pitkänen said...

The discussion has removed quite from the original topic and answering all the question would require several postings. I just underline the basic notions. Maybe this helps to answer your questions.

a) Various hierarchies are key notion. Hierarchy of dark matter (Planck constants) defining hierarchy of time and length scales for the size of space-time region about which conscious experience is, p-adic length scale hierarchy, and also the hierarchy of selves. Sub-consious corresponds to conscious but at lower level of self hierarchy hierarchy whereas higher levels would correspond to collective consciousness. The sub-selves affect our behavior all the time and marketing people know that. For gravitation large value of hbar means large size of coherence region.

b) I do not believe that conscious mind relies solely on nerve pulses alone. It is extremely difficult to understand how sensory qualia could result in this manner, and in TGD Universe sensory receptors are identified as the seats of qualia. This does not lead to contradictions if the new view about time is accepted. For instance, phantom leg experience would be sensory experience in geometric past when the leg still existed. The role of nerve pulses in the new vision is to form cognitive, symbolic representations about sensory input as a collection of standardized mental images. For instance, decomposing the sensory input to standardized objects and giving them names, making predictions. Brain would act like a memetic engineer or artist leaving out all unessential and emphasizing the essential. This is very creative process in which feedback from the brain and possibly also from magnetic body contributes to the sensory input. For instance, during visual dreaming rapid eye motions reflect this input. Brain would be thus responsible for very special kind of mental images only.

c) What are the contributions of magnetic body to conscious experience is a long story. To answer this question one can apply the standard approach of biosciences: these experiences should be what remains as sensory input from body and cognitive input from brain are absent. Out of body experiences associated with near death experiences for instance. It would be you magnetic body which looks your dying biological body and feels no pain. This however requires direct electromagnetic communication between the magnetic body and environment. The sensorily experienced illusory motions could be due to the actual motions of magnetic body. Train illusion could result from the motion of magnetic body instead of the actual motion of the biological body. The nasty feeling about falling from cliff would be second example. In the real situation biological body would be in accelerated motion with respect to magnetic body. In the imagined experience magnetic body would be in accelerated motion with respect to biological body and generate the experience. The physical correlate for these experiences involving no sensory receptors and no nerve pulses would be the changing pattern of radiation between biological and magnetic body.

Ulla said...

"Out of body experiences associated with near death experiences for instance. It would be you magnetic body which looks your dying biological body and feels no pain."

That is true, I forgot. I have experienced it several times, and the pain is really absent, but not consciousness. I remember from childhood the joy it brought, and my movements was really "floating". Also later I experienced the same. In a dangerous situation I got more strength for my biological body and I was aware, keen to help my own body. No pain, but feelings yes.
In accidents one can often read about people getting enormous strength. Perhaps this is the explanation? Adrenaline alone can't be responsible.

Perhaps I wasn't entirely loosened from my biological body then? Otherwise I would be dead?

I must study on. How difficult it can be for a biologist? Excuse me.

donkerheid said...

Dear Matti,

Some say there's a simpler explanation for phantom limbs: if a limb is lost, the brain won't get input from that part, but the brain demands it, so creates connections with neighbouring brain areas, creating the feeling that the lost limb is stimulated. But maybe both ideas can be right.

Once I heard that at the moment of death the amount of some transmitter increases 200-fold, and maybe thus creates joy. Does this makes sense to you?

Matti Pitkänen said...

This is the standard explanation for phantom limb. The problems or standard approach are however many: how to understand how the mere structure of neuron net or mere transmitters can give rise to sensory qualia (including physical pain), what memories and memory recall are,... (As far as I know the transmitters appearing in various sensory areas do not differ in any dramatic manner.)

There is a nice book about peptides as molecules of emotions by Candace Pert. I do not however believe that joy reduces to a mere cocktail of neurochemicals. Could emotions be seen as higher level sensory experiences, kind of abstractions about the state of brain and body, and be assigned with magnetic body to which information about the state of brain and body is sent?

There is a kind of explosion of neurotransmitters during death. Could the joy be joy as the suffering ends and the realization that death is illusion comes;-)? The higher the level in evolutional hierarchy, the more organism "behaves" and the stronger is the inhibition of neural activity. Could the enormous feeling of relief has as its neural correlate giving up the inhibition and let it go?

One can also wonder what the exact role of transmitters might be. The quantum model of nerve pulse inspires the question whether the emission of transmitter creates a connection in the 4-D web of flux tubes having neurons as nodes. Neurotransmitter would characterize what kind of information and to which part of neuron is transmitted as electromagnetic wave pattern after the connection between neurons has been established in 4-dimensional sense by the synaptic vesicles moving between pre- and post-synaptic ends. A very intense emission of transmitters would be analog for a very intense traffic in word wide web and mean very high connectivity in 4-D sense. Could joy and sadness relate basically to the changes of this connectivity? Physical pain results from the damage of body. The reduction of the connectivity of neuronal web is something analogous so that low level of connections (transmitters) could be accompanied by negative feelings or depressive mood. The increase of the connectivity would mean positively colored experience.

Ulla said...

This will be a never ending story.

In brain there are many maps of the body. Also many maps of your limbs. And if you cut a limb that part will be eraded in the brains maps too, with some time. But as I have understood it, phantom limb pain is from nerve endings that have been damaged when the limb was cut or healed. Also trigger points could be in question. This damage will feed continuous pain and maintain perhaps the maps.

Pain is no qualia, as It is not percieved by the magnetic body, but it should be some kind of consciousness. It can be altered by thoughts, feelings, happenings of any kind.

People with bipersonal syndrome sometimes show this. If one person suffer from, say high bloodpressure, an other person can suffer from diabetes, a third from astmatic attack. And within seconds theese diseases can shift in such a person. Explain that!!!

That book of Pert is one of my inspirations. Chemicals are important, but as I see it they are no reason to anything, but a consequence. You can actually manufacture to yourself say a hysterical kind of emotion, easily seen with children.

"Could the joy be joy as the suffering ends and the realization that death is illusion comes" - No, I say no. First you die, then you realize you are dead. Not contrarily. Death is actually a feed forward process, and that can be the explanation? "giving up the inhibition" - I think inhibition is very important, but the kind you talk about is emotional restriction that will give "moral" and "behaviour".

I think the main role of neurotransmitters are as modifiers of the nerve pulse. Perhaps adding patterns in its frequencies. Low mood is not low connectivity in my opinion, but just another type of pattern. Consciousness is also very important for emotions. Without consciousness there will be much more somatic deseases instead. To cure focal emotions you must first be aware of them.

Cated said...

At any rate, I liked some of the vadlo science cartoons!

Matti Pitkänen said...

Brain creates maps of the sensory landscape. Symbolic representations about perceptive field are generalized maps. Here we agree.

A considerable fraction of me tends to believe that physical pain is assignable with the nerve endings (of 4-D body of course;-)!). There are receptors for pain. That we very rarely feel pain in our dreams could be due to the fact that there is no nerve pulse feedback generating artificial pain and that we not usually want to experience sensory memories about the pain of the past. I have had some dreams in which I feel that my skin is touched. Neuronal feedback or sensory memory?

The remaining portion of me disagrees and argues that physical pain is universal and could therefore be located in pain receptors, brain, or at some layer of the onion like magnetic body. It also asks whether phantom limb could be a still existing layer of the magnetic body assignable to the lost limb?

What to me (all of it) looks a good question is "What could be the universal course of physical/psychological pain". Something which cuts, splits, tears apart - changes topology by reducing connectedness. Hence the reduction of connectivity of the 4-D net defined by nerve pulse pattern in quantum jump is a good candidate for the cause of psychological pain. Cutting your hand for causing physical pain.

The multiple personality mystery leads to ask at what level of the hierarchy the correlates of personality reside? Personality relates to consciousness in very long time scale. Does personality correspond to large Planck constant and to a high level of personal dark matter hierarchy? If so, the change of personality would mean quantum jump in very long time scale inducing the re-organization of the entire 4-D biological body. Even the memories and future plans would change as the personality changes. This brings to my mind the great experiences which led to this endless consciousness theorizing: the experience quite literally was that my emotional past was reborn. Bad deeds were forgiven, bitterness disappeared,...

Ulla said...

We have also motoric maps, maps of all kind, laid upon each other like pages in a book.

That fraction of you that experiences pain (as a therapist I would like to help you) depends on receptors of course, but also on much more. I think the receptors are a minor cause. Pain is not a qualia, but a (learned) signal that something is not what it should be. Pain is a complex thing, a holographic picture of missing something?

That we do not feel pain in our dreems also suggests this. From childhood I remember many dreams where I felt real horror, not at all a pleasant emotion. Horror is worse than pain, that's why people cut themselves. Physical pain relieves. And you can dream about very pleasant things too. But I haven't had one single dream with pain.

The reason for pain is not bad connection but too close connection:-) Nerves must be free, otherwise they will be hurt when the topology change:-) You know that very well, I think.

"the change of personality would mean quantum jump in very long time scale inducing the re-organization of the entire 4-D biological body."

This is quite true. And do you know what induces those changes? Emotions! I have seen it myself, and it is a really beautiful thing. Suddenly you feel a very good emotion, or get rid of bad emotions, like taking off clothes, and everything is changed for better. Even your body changes. That's a bliss.

Perhaps that happened in your great experiences? Suddenly everything was healed. But you went back... and feels pain.

Now, I think, we are in deep water.

Consciousness and magnetic body was the topic! If pain is a holographic thing, are there other? Mood, perhaps? This is bare speculations of me, of course.

Ulla said...

Here is a link to the high level of neurotransmitters near death.