Saturday, April 07, 2012

How to build a quantum computer from magnetic flux tubes?

Magnetic flux tubes play a key role in TGD inspired model of quantum biology. Could the networks of magnetic flux tubes containing dark particles with large hbar in macroscopic quantum states and carrying beams of dark photons define analogs of electric circuits? This would be rather cheap technology since no metal would be needed for wires. Dark photon beams would propagate along the flux tubes representing the analogs of optical cables and make possible communications with maximal signal velocity.

I have actually made much more radical proposal in TGD inspired quantum biology. According to this proposal, flux tube connections are dynamical and can be changed by reconnection of two magnetic flux tubes. The signal pathways A→ C and B→ D would be transformed to signal pathways to A→ D and B→ C by reconnection. Reconnection actually represents a basic stringy vertex. The contraction of magnetic flux tubes by a phase transition changing Planck constant could be fundamental in bio-catalysis since it would allow distant molecules connected by flux tubes to find each other in the molecular crowd.

DNA as a topological quantum computer is the idea that I have been developing for 5 years or so. I have concentrated on the new physics realization of braids and devoted not much thought to how the quantum computer problems might run in this framework. I was surprised to realize how little I know about what happens in even ordinary computation. Instead of going immediately to Wikipedia I take the risk of publicly making myself fool and try to use my own brain.

1. What can one learn from ordinary computer programs

One could begin with the question what happens in classical computation. How the program is realized and how it runs? The notion of Turing machine represents an extreme abstraction mentioning nothing about the technical side and does not help much in attempts to answer these questions. Turing paradigm also assumes that program is a temporal sequence of operations. These operations could however correspond to a linear spatial sequences and inputs and outputs in this case would correspond to boundary values at the ends of the linear structure. This requires that the dynamics is such that evolution in spatial direction is analogous to a deterministic time evolution. In this case it is much easier to imagine biological realizations of quantum computer programs in TGD inspired bio-world.

To develop concrete ideas, one can start from the picture provided by ordinary computer program.

  1. Programs consist of temporal/spatial sequences of commands and commands represent basic functions from which one can build more complex functions by the composition of functions having some numbers of input and output arguments. The eventual output variable can be expressed by printing of a piece of text or as an image in the computer screen. Each step in the program corresponds to a composition of functions: fn+1= gn+1 o fn. There is some minimal set of primitive/prime functions from which one builds up more complex functions by composition.

  2. How this is realized at the level of hardware? One can assume that the basic functions are at some fixed places in the computer memory having addresses given by integers represented as bit sequences. This address represents the command - a name of the function. The names for input variables and output variables are bit sequences giving the addresses of the places containing the values of these variables. Program is a sequence of commands represented as bit sequences giving the address of the function to be computed at a given step and the addresses of inputs and outputs. As the processing unit reads the command, it generates/activates connections from the addresses of inputs to the address representing the function and from this address to the addresses of outputs.

    Essentially the challenge is to reconnect, build/activate connections. An interesting question is whether learning as strengthening of synaptic connections is one particular example of this process.

  3. How the sequence of bits representing command address is realized? As the processing unit reads the address of command it should automatically create/activate a connection from this address to the command address. The connections from the processing unit to the addresses could exist physically as wirings.

  4. It is not necessary that program is dynamical so that the inputs and outputs would be initial and final values of variables. Inputs and outputs could also correspond to values of variables at the ends of a linear structure. In topological quantum computation space-like entanglement would represent superposition of input-output pairs characterizing a function as a rule with instances represented as instances appearing in the superposition.

If this picture is roughly correct, re-connection would be the basic process. Reconnection is the basic process for magnetic flux tubes and ADP↔ ATP has been assigned to this process with ATP molecule serving as a relay activating the flux tube connection. Maybe ADP-ATP process, which is usually seen as a basic step of metabolism, could be seen as the core step for quantum computation performed by living matter. One expects that the presence ATP makes the rule represented by negentropic quantum entanglement conscious.

2. Quantum computation magnetic flux tubes as connections

Consider now quantum computation could take place in a circuitry having magnetic flux tubes as wires and some bio-molecules of groups of them as units defining prime functions. DNA as topological quantum computer could be taken as a starting point. The outcome of quantum computation is determined statistically as ensemble average so that a large number of copies of the program should be present and realized in terms of groups of cells or molecules connected by braidings if the quantum computation is space-like. This option seems more natural than time-like quantum computation realized as a 2-D liquid flow of lipids in the lipid layers of the cell membrane.

2.1 The hardware

Consider first the hardware of topological quantum computation using space-like braids.

  1. Magnetic flux tubes would represent the wires along which inputs and outputs travel in the case of classical computation or dynamical quantum computation. In the case of space-like topological quantum computation entanglement is between the ends of the flux tubes.

  2. Variables could be represented in many manners. For space-like quantum computations they could correspond to spin states of dark electrons at flux tubes or to polarization states of dark electrons at the flux tubes. In the original model of DNA as topological quantum computer quarks and antiquarks where proposed as a representation of genetic codons: also this quite science fictive option could make sense in TGD Universe since TGD predicts scaled versions of QCD like dynamics and presence of elementary particles in several p-adic scales and in scales dictated by value of Planck constant for given p-adic length scale.

    The spin states of electron pair has been proposed as one possible representation of the 4 genetic codons. Quantum variables would be represented by qubit sequences and the measurement of qubit would give a bit sequence characterizing the classical value of the variable. Bio-molecules would be natural places for storing the values of the variables. For dynamical computations the values of variables could be transmitted using dark photons.

  3. There would exist basic processing units calculating the prime functions from which more complex functions would be obtained as composites. Basic units could correspond to bio-molecules. In the case of classical computation the inputs to molecules and outputs from them would travel along the flux tubes. In quantum computation these signals could be used to control the initial values of the variables. Molecules could also serve as gates for quantum computation.

2.2 Representation of programs

The basic program units in the case of quantum computation would be represented by braidings.

  1. If the ends of braid strands are able to move freely when needed, it becomes possible to re-write programs. Lipid layers of cell membrane can be in liquid crystal state so that these are ideal for this purpose. The time-like braiding resulting from lipid flow and representing running topological quantum computation program would induce space-like braiding representing space-like topological quantum computation or a rule. A particular quantum computer program represented as space-like braiding of the flux tubes would result as liquid crystal melts for a moment and freezes again.

    The process in which proteins covered by ordered water analogous to ice temporarily melt and form aggregates is basic process induced by the feed of energy to the cellular system and could be compared to cellular summer. This process could mean quite generally molecular re-programming induced by the flow of cellular water inducing molecular flows inducing re-braidings. The braiding would also store the highlights of the cellular summer to cellular memory! This could be also seen learning by a modification of various quantum computer programs.

  2. Negentropic entanglement is highly suggestive and would conform with the idea that the rule represented by entanglement represents conscious information or information which can become conscious. The process of becoming conscious information could involve ATP→ ADP and de-activating the flux tube and destroy the information. Time-like braiding represented by liquid flow would modify space-like braiding.

    It is not quite clear whether the information is conscious when negentropic entanglement (and ATP) is present - as Bohm's notion of active information would suggest - or when ATP is transformed to ADP and connection becomes passive. Negentropic entanglement can be stable with respect to NMP so that the presence of ATP could mean period of conscious experience - negentropic entanglement could be analogous to active information.

    TGD based model for the memory recall by sending negative energy signals to geometric past suggests that the absorption of negative energy photon transforms ATP to ADP. Conscious experience is regenerated in the geometric now where the negative energy signal came from - perhaps by transforming ADP to ATP by using the negative resulting by sending of negative energy signal! Conscious reading would be actually memory recall and analogous to teleportation? The destruction of the representation of memory in the geometric past would have interpretation in terms of no-cloning theorem.

  3. Static realizations of the programs are easier to imagine since no temporal codes are needed for the transfer of bits. An attractive idea is that the computations are represented by static entanglements for linear structures and that time-like braiding allows to modify the programs.

2.3 The realization of program

The program would be basically a sequence of address lists. Address list would contain the address of the function to be performed and the addresses of the input molecules and output molecules. How to represent the address physically?

  1. The simplest manner to realize this would use existing flux tubes connecting the processing unit to all possible input and output addresses as well as command addresses, and activate those flux tubes to which input and output data are assigned and reconnect them to the flux tubes connecting processing unit to the unit representing the function. The processing unit would have flux tubes coming from all possible inputs, going to all possible outputs, flux tubes going to places representing functions and coming from these places. Processing unit would be like a relay station or old fashioned telephone center whose sole purpose would be to create connections by reconnecting flux tubes. ATP molecule would be probably involved with the activation and - allowing a sloppy language - one could say that communication line becomes conscious when ATP is attached to it.

    1. Addressing would be just selection of activated molecules and analogous to that used in telephone network or computer network connected by cables. This would require static flux tube network and flux tubes could be either active or passive. In passive state flux tubes could be short-cut by a reconnection with hydrogen bond so that the ends of cut flux tube would end up to water molecules. This is however not necessary. Activation in absence of the short cut would involve reconnection of a flux tube with a flux tube connecting two parts of ATP - possibly hydrogen bond again- so that ATP becomes part of the flux tubes. If also short cut is involved, the strands coming to the two water molecules reconnect and generate hydrogen bond and flux tube to which ATP would attach in the proposed manner. As ATP is used it transforms to ADP and de-attaches from the flux tube.

    2. One can imagine also a dynamical addressing based on the generation of magnetic flux tubes between inputs and submodules. The computational process could be still space-like. The first manner to realize dynamical addressing would be by attaching to the ends of dynamical flux tubes biomolecules, which bind to specific receptors. Receptor mechanism would allow to connect distant cells to each other and build a magnetic flux tube connection between them. Computational unit specialized to run a specific program could excrete biomolecules binding to the input and output receptors: this program would realized function in terms of space-like entanglement. Glands emit hormones binding to receptors and various glands could in principle serve as computational units. Various information molecules bind very selectively and this might also relate to quantum space-like computations.

    3. Second mechanism of dynamical addressing would use dark photons. In this case resonant interaction selecting the target would replace the receptor mechanism. In this kind of situation one can claim that flux tubes are un-necessary, one can use just resonance to build connection to a desired place just as one does in radio communications. Of course, topological light rays could be accompanied by flux tubes. For instance, DNA nucleotide could attach by flux tube to its conjugate in distant DNA molecule and if the connection is based on resonance only similar nucleotide sequences could connect with each other. I have discussed this kind of mechanism in a model for remote replication of DNA based on the experimental work by Peter Gariaev and his group. The resonance mechanism could also make possible to establish flux tube connections and the quantum computation could be a static operation.

  2. DNA as topological quantum computer vision gives some idea about how the computer program could be realized as a spatial linear structure.

    1. Program would be a sequence of topological quantum computations. Given topological quantum computation would be represented by a braiding of flux tubes connecting DNA nucleotides with the lipid molecules of the inner lipid layer. Program would correspond to a linear sequence of cells with the outer lipid layer connected to the DNA of the second cell.

    2. Lipid flows at given lipid layer could be used to rewrite programs and the programs could respond to the changes in environment in this manner: this would require that the lipid layer is in liquid crystal state during the period when program is changed. Also nerve pulse patterns would induce these flows. Programs would also represent memories as rules realized as quantum abstractions or as quantum functions.

    3. The program would "run" in the spatial direction. The selection of active input and output variables would be by acting the connection from molecule in question by attaching ATP as a relay through which the reconnected flux tube would traverse. This would be also part of the writing of the program. The superposition of entangled inputs and outputs could be seen as a quantum superposition of classical programs assigning outputs to inputs. Also microtubule-lipid layer braiding suggested also to play a key role in the realization of memories could give rise to similar space-like quantum computation representing rules.

    4. The effective 2-dimensionality implied by strong form of holography implied in turn by strong form of general coordinate invariance means that the physics depends on partonic 2-surfaces and 4-D tangent space data at them. This suggests that the dynamics on space-like 3-surfaces and light-like orbits of partonic 2-surfaces is fixed by a process analogous to gauge selection. Does just this effective gauge symmetry make possible to write quantum computer programs? Already ordinary deterministic computer program means selection of one particular dynamics from several alternative options suggesting that strict determinism is broken.

  3. What could be the role of bio-catalysis in the computation? Bio-catalysis is a central part of the biological information processing and it would not be surprising if the catalysts connected by flux tubes to substrate molecules were involved with the computations. An attractive idea is that various information molecules binding to receptors involved with bio-control (neurotransmitters, hormones, etc...) are involved with building the flux tube connections between cells. These bio-molecules could carry the ends of flux tubes to special places for which receptors serve as addresses and in this manner build hardware for topological quantum computation involving inputs and outputs in distant parts of the body. The final output could be transformed to controlled gene expression. Quite generally, catalysts bind very selectively and could play a role similar that played by information molecules in building up the quantum computer programs.

  4. One can imagine also purely classical computation based on catalytic mechanism probably allowing generalization to quantum case. The idea is that computer program - understood now as dynamical structure - is analogous to what happens in fairy tale in which hero finds a key which fits to a lock of a room containing a key which... There exists a beautiful realization of classical computation in terms of chemical concentrations using DNA. The output of given reaction representing computational step appears in the next reaction provide the system contains additional participating molecules, which could be both substrate molecules and catalysts. The program could be represented as concentrations of molecules needed at intermediate steps and lock-to-key mechanism guarantees that they are performed in the correct temporal order. Inputs and output molecules could be connected by flux tubes to bio-molecules which bind to specific receptors associated with the molecule representing the particular subprogram. This would automatically create a large number of classical computations proceeding in fixed order, maybe even quantum computations.

For a pdf version of this article see How to build a quantum computer from magnetic flux tubes?.


◘Fractality◘ said...


How do magnetic flux tubes compare to the Birkeland current?

My admittedly wild conjecture: Is the Birkeland current the magnetic flux tube at the level of Earth in some sense? said...

Birkeland currents are currents flowing along flux lines of Earth's magnetic field. In magnetohydrodynamics approximation the conductivity is infinite and there is no dissipation.

I have wondered whether these currents could be actually supra currents - maybe dark electrons and protons and even ions running along flux tubes or walls of Earth's magnetic field.

◘Fractality◘ said...


If the Birkeland currents are indeed supra currents with dark electrons/protons - can we assume that there is an intelligence that can be associated with it?

Dark matter = quantum controlling regular matter as principle of TGD Universe?

Ulla said...

Those neural networks used in my earlier link was in contact with bigger systems as the one of Earth (the clock). This is the open system that never reach equilibrium. The outer magnetosphere is in the same way more in contact with cosmos and the sun?

Plato Hagel has an interesting set of posts on this. He asks 'What is a Mind?'

The function of complexity may not lie in the complexity itself, but in the functions following the complexity (the tree and the wave), which brings my thoughts top-adics (dichotomous or bicameral), creating coherence of qubits, qutrits etc. What is that expressed in spacetimes?

Does minds have spacetimes? Does consciousness have spacetimes versus is it continous?

Maybe we have messed up complexity with its consequences in form of creating coherence? That would mean the growing coherence would be the goal of evolution, which is almost the same as Law II??? The strivings to diminish tensions by compressing them?

If we look at Nature there are many non-living phenomens also not directly following Law II. Look at a snowflake as instance, formations of mountains, creation of matter and Fe-chains, Oxygen- reactions...

Building of symmetry and breaking of symmetry. Coherence and decoherence.

If we look at a small form of life like bacterias without nerve system they expose superorganismic charachters of communication (no individual self). This means they are mostly part of the bigger systems clusters, populations, Earth... a bit like planets and galaxies?

A plasmashield as instantous? Plasmas seen as one nucleus or wave (coherent phase), with charachters of one single particle (secondary?), usually said to have Euclidean space, but how can it have the spherical form then (of Minkowski space - the gravity link?)?

Santeri Satama said...

Quantum computer build inside a diamond:

Ulla said...

Quote: Though solid-state computing systems have existed before, this was the first to incorporate decoherence protection – using microwave pulses to continually switch the direction of the electron spin rotation.

"It's a little like time travel," Lidar said, because switching the direction of rotation time-reverses the inconsistencies in motion as the qubits move back to their original position."

Well... Life is very much decoherence protected? This emphasize the pronouncement on quantum-like states (born by synchrony?), realized by Khrennikov (and Rakovic?)and you.

What makes the chakras (correspond to a chrystal?) in p-adic language? They are gates. Thanks so very much :)

Ulla said...

I googled the 'singing genome' and look:
What is this? Sound as egigenetic factor (miRNA)? Cognition as epigenetics, coming from the environment? A different spacetime affecting us?


I need the explanation when you earlier said it was not at the tip of the spacetime cone. Can genes be explained as different spacetime cones (diamonds?), then the environmental spacetime comes as fluxes? A bigger cone connects/glue to a smaller one? said...

To Ulla:

The idea that consciousness emerges at certain critical complexity does not look very convincing to me. The quite recent finding is that when one wakes up from anesthesia - assumed to correspond unconscious state - the wake-up means that the lowest brain structures are activated as one becomes conscious.

The orthodox belief inspired not only by complexity theory but also by the possibility to test drugs with animals, has been that consciousness emerges as cortex or perhaps its newest parts - say those involved with language - emerge. The latter assumption would make possible experimentations with our cousins. The finding implies among other things that all species having brain stem are conscious: embarrassing for those speaking about animal models.

The natural interpretation in TGD framework is that there is hierarchy of selves. Lower levels selves wake-up first. The question whether some level - presumably collective- is in wake-up state even during sleep, is interesting. said...

To Ulla:

Sound couples to electricity in piezo-electrics and living matter is this kind of system. I would describe this using the coupling between space-time sheets and coupling of particles with them.

About the latter I wrote a posting few months ago: simultaneous topological condensation of particle to several space-time sheets makes possible superposition of effects of classical fields of various systems and there is no need to assume that the classical fields superpose. This little technicality is of utmost importance mathematically and physically.

To cure the effects of perturbations by time reversal is fantastic idea. I remember that it has been observed already for phase conjugate laser beams. This forces me to take seriously the possibility that geometric time can flow in opposite direction. Now this arrow property of zero energy states. In ordinary ontology it is property of their dynamics.

I am not sure whether you are talking about same topic as Lubos was raging for some time ago. He labelled one of the greatest quantum experimenters Anton Zeiliger a crackpot for his "wrong" thinking. The rants of Lubos is getting crazier day by day. His opinions about women, wrong colored ones, etc.. are frightening. Lubos gives a rigorous proof for the fact that there can be no understanding without compassion.

Ulla said...

I don't read Lubos posts any more. I think I don't need that baggage. His opinions about Zeilinger is old, depending on his thinking about the Schrödinger cat. Still Zeilinger is of Nobel caliber :) Wishful thinking of Lubos? The world has CHANGED?

What you say about unifying effects of quantum superposition, not fields, are interesting. Some have expressed it as a linear wavefunction almost totally in momentum waves, like a formation of standing waves? Then they are not unified, just added (transfer of momentum?)? I must say I have difficulties seeing the difference. The wave can be expressed as a soliton that is expanded. The old wave is gone, or shrinked/compressed very much.

Consciousness needs a gate (the brainstem) AND inputs (the body) as Damasio has showed. I think the gate is the important one. It can be seen as some kind of 'zero point' of consciousness-type between the equation and its result (some cognition, awareness, wakefulness?). Emotions are very important in that equation. Language is a developed kind of result, linked to working memory (p-adics). In this way consciousness is born in the whole body as a result of interference of two 'effects' (waves and their momentums?), one big and one little. Compare to HUM. The whole body is the 'antenna'.

The particle (position) is in this view detatched from its wave effects? You talk of piezo-electric effects, which are exactly that, also in the diamond-computer. A microwave keep the quantum wave alive in the diamond by protecting against decoherence. The same picture can be used in living matter and its quantum-like effects?

p-adics linked to non-coding RNAs?

I must read your old post again. I did not understand your answer then.

The complexity is important as equivalent to the microwave? It just shelter from decoherence (bigger is better)? So more is better, also for evolution? But we select for the the quantum(like) wave, not the complexity per se?

Look, they try to find interference of dark matter (WIMPs) and living matter nucleus - a bit like the diamond computer? said...

To Ulla:

Something very positive about Lubos: he allowed a climate professional to write a guest posting. Very crystallized representation about why he believes in human induced climate change.

The posting of Lubos in April first suggests that he might have become a little bit suspicious about his own convictions concerning climate change. Anyone who is able to achieve this kind of cognitive critical point deserves congratulations. said...

To Santeri Satama:

I recall that we have discussed for years ago about active information. I had not previously realized that negentropic entanglement is direct counterpart for active information originally introduced by Bohm.

In the model for bio-systems as quantum computer ATP molecules appearing at magnetic flux tube would induce negentropic entanglement and allowing some sloppiness one can say that the flux tube is conscious as long as ATP is there.

This would allow to see the immensely complex and mysterious dynamical web involving information molecules and enzymes attaching to receptors as building of conscious flux tube connections by reconnection mechanism completely analogous to what happens in old fashioned telephone center.

Phosphorylation is present everywhere in these reconnection processes and high energy phosphate bond would be the key element of negentropic entanglement in living matter as we understand it.

Ulla said...

like this?

Ulla said...

'Form as reason' or formative causality has been debated.

Reason is often said to be reflexive, or "self-correcting",

Reason and logic? are both left brainers? What about right hemisphere?

Aristotle talked about this. Memes are about this? Sheldrakes morphic fields are about this?

Sheldrake used Bohms 'implicate order'.

We realize things as 'boxes' or categories, representations.

Anonymous said...


Bohm's pilot wave gives only a momentum, not a second-order energy function. In this way it revives the impulse dynamics of Aristotle, as was intended by Marin Mersenne. For his part, Aristotle was echoing the teaching of archery in the Old School. There long experience bought to light the fact that scores in archery contests varied with body-weight. To the action of the bow-string there is a reaction or recoil in the body.

Hence Newton's Third Law, stated in terms of action as force x velocity or power. Note that this usage is archaic and not consistent with Maupertius' Least Action, which is the integral of momentum over a path. It was rather Helmholtz at Berlin who spoke of conserved force, and equilibrium defined by least energy, strictly the Helmoltz free energy. People still speak in these terms of the Weak and Strong Force, but please note that force is not conserved in thermodynamics, nor covered by Noether's theorem.

At the same time, power is central to Fechner's psycho-physics: a stimulus intensity is a power, measured in decibels or lumens, as is the effort (Greek ergon) of an action. The Greek enargia is the root of our energy, but in Aristotle signifies actuality, what is actualized in experience, moment by moment. Hence the concern now to quantize time, within the tradition of American New Realism.

The interesting point now is that body-weight is not mass, so should one perhaps look to Poisson or Liouville gravity? There is no easy answer, since the Sturm-Liouville formalism gives piece-wise continuity, but Poisson actualizes the Lorentz relativity. This is the oldest question in meta-physics or meta-physique, still with us, yet unsolved.

*What is not understood is destined to be repeated*

**Name/URL option closed. I'm out of here. Orwin.

Matti Pitkänen said...

Thank to Anynymous Orwin;-) for ab excellent summary of the history of the concept of force. It is very difficult to use correctly the notions of physics without understanding their mathematical meaning. Force has so many associations to everyday life.

Rate for momentum transfer is the mathematically precise definition of force. One can think that physical systems have various conserved quantities like energy, momentum, angular momentum, charges of various kinds, as currencies which they can exchange and which can also have negative values, but whose total sums are conserved.

Santeri Satama said...

Hiley and Pylkkänen, Can Mind Affect Matter Via Active Information?:

How does the Hiley-Pylkkänen approach entangle with your view of negentropic entanglement and phosphorylation-enlightenment (Gr. Fosforos - Lat. Lucifer - Lightbringer ;))?

PS: Entangled diamonds in room temperature: said...

As far as Bohm is considered, the notion of active information and the implicate seem to be the only concepts that has direct TGD counterpart. His proposal for the interpretation of quantum theory is not elegant.

What is interesting that Bohm was a friend of Krishnamurti and they have also published their discussions. The "beginning of enlightment" about which Krishnamurti talks often could be seen as emergence of active information/negentropic entanglement free of the load of memories and models (ego) preventing genuine understanding.

I do not know about how strongly the approach of Hiley and Pylkkänen relies on the other ideas of Bohm.

Really amusing that phosphorus uses so descriptive name;-). The correlation with ATP makes the notion of negentropic entanglement very predictive. Phosphorus and also nitrogen and arsenic are exceptional in that they can have effective valence 5! This would explain their completely special role in biochemistry.

For only few years later entanglement was decided to exist only in microscopic scales and anyone speaking about entanglement in living matter was regarded as mad. Now it is observed routinely in macroscopic scales. Times change and require an intensive rewriting of history.

The fact that I would not say aloud if I behaved in good collegial manner is that macroscopic entanglement is not really understood in standard quantum theory. But every family has its black sheep.

Santeri Satama said...

From the Hiley-Pylkkänen article: "We follow Bohm in assuming that, at each level, information is the link or bridge
between the mental and the physical sides."

E-g. the areas linking and bridging p-adic and real areas. :)

Couple questions:
- Any specific reason why the biggest objects so far behaving QM in lab tests are carbon?
- Does the notion of 'maximum entropy' (from singularity of inflation cosmologies) exist in your theory and if so, what is its relation with zero-energy states, complexity and evolution?

L. Edgar Otto said...

Hey Matti,

Odd in the change over to the new blogspot design I find your blog the one hidden one. I don't know what this means but if it means I am not supposed to read let me know so we don't entangle the fractured at a distance dialog.

I have had trouble (since 95 or so) with the notion of using DNA or in tandem to nano-structures as a method of computation and even as a program it is called a genetic or inheritance algorithm. With this method one can run a super computer in a drop of water and answer some of the NP hard problems. But I have always seen the DNA structure itself as dynamic and a program of computation. I am not sure that it will turn out a matter of quantum principles after all, so then your TGD aspects form a view outside of mine and qm formulation. I must think about this.

There are now several surprising layers unexpected in the DNA encoding- the latest is that proteins prefer one of the combinations of so many of the 64 possible of those encoding for the same things. This time delay has effects as a response to the overall system distinct to individual organisms. This is the level at which some sort of natural flow of "dark entities like photon analogs with different virtual Planck scales" may be a system of computation with specific paths of the "TGD wormholes".

But what I talk about is on the codon base level where we apply structure more than on this resulting chromosome level although certainly they all relate.

Consciousness seems in these context even more complex than the DNA or on what physical thing it has to stand on to persist as real and partly conserved and invariant. In a global sense one might say that beyond the quantum symmetry principles the higher vacuum of the field of that described outside of the active logic and process intrinsic to the general DNA that this forms a mirror that could be seen as a virtual substance of consciousness.

But surely this is too simple. In any case to the extent the mind is a chemical and electrical phenomenon qm theory does apply- these principles including the path integrals are really a reductionism to the useful Feynman diagrams and do not restrict what further generalizations we imagine that does not meet the minds eye.

I have caught up some to the new computer landscape since 95 so I understand now html is there to use. I like your page set up. The future will go back to more complexity in pages, several layers I imagine :-)

The PeSla

Matti Pitkänen said...

Dear Pesla,

could you tell precisely what do you mean with the change to new blogpost design?

The virus attackers re merciless. Also a problem with comment preview has appeared recently. Only part of line is visible. Your comment suggests that there are also problems not visible to me.

To the topic: I am not suggesting that DNA and genes are enough. Together with lipid layers DNA is only the hardware for topological quantum computation. Magnetic flux tubes connecting them define the software by their braidings. Also other molecules have braidings so that a completely new level of information processing would be there.

The genetic inheritance of diseases, genetic determination of body patterns by genes, and genetic determination of intelligence are three examples about genetic dogma. It is becoming clear that these dogmas are wrong. Somehow the interactions with environment are involved with the development of diseases. Some unknown level of interactions determines also the body patterns.

Magnetic body represents this level in TGD Universe. The magnetic flux tubes store a representations about the interactions with cellular environment and via sensory perception with external environment to their space-like braidings, and in this manner update the quantum computer programs. The contractions and reconnections of flux tubes are central mechanisms in the development and dynamics of the web of flux tubes and this naturally determines also the body patterns.

Mae-Wan Ho has nice articles about the emerging new biology: also about genetic determination of body patterns and inheritance of diseases. See , ,

and . said...

I found that the Google has refreshed the procedure for writing blog postings. I loaded the updated procedure. But the problem with incompletely shown text lines did not disappear.

Ulla said... said...

To Ulla:

I have usually expressed my attitude to the idea about quantum parallel world splitting to new branches endlessly by saying that I do not have never understood it. This is certainly true.

In a less diplomatic mood I would continue by saying that the reason for why I do not understand it is that there is nothing to be understood: this idea is complete nonsense. Just a desperate attempt to save the determinism of quantum theory by introducing pseudo-mathematical structure having no mathematical sense.

The idea about deterministic world where physicists as the Over Lords of the Universe replacing God as those who can predict everything is very difficult to challenge. Facts are powerless against imperialistic egos.

Ulla said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ulla said...

Ilona Miller talks of scalars as active information

I cannot find Popps artcles that used to be on

Someone know where they have been transfered?

Ulla said...

Dark matter galaxies possible? In cosmology DM is ordinary matter, no WHIMP? And no neutrino? I wish Kea would have continued, but it is maybe too much asked due to facts of life.

Ulla said...

One more,

Its relation to the diamond computer. Was the microwaves noise, so it could be this phenomenon? In biology noise as instance GABA inhibition creates coherence and synchrony with time-gates.

Sorry for my many comments, again. I deleted one stupid comment :)

Ulla said... Kramers rate/theorem.

Anonymous said...


I have a question about zero energy ontology and its relation to memory and intentional action.

"...intentional action and the idea that motor action can be seen as time reversal
of sensory perception."

What do you mean by time reversal? Intention cascades from higher-levels of the self-hierarchy down to the level of motor control?


Matti Pitkänen said...

To Anonymous:

Classically time reversal would mean negative energy signals propagating in the direction of geometric past. Phase conjugate laser waves represent a canonical example. Second law holds true in reversed direction of geometric time for them. This makes possible error correction.

In zero energy ontology where zero energy states are pairs of positive energy and negative energy at opposite boundaries of causal diamonds, and the notion of time arrow can be formulated as a property of these states. Time reversal of course permutes the roles of upper and lower boundaries of CD.

These states can have well defined single particle quantum numbers either at the upper or lower boundary of CD. These states are analogous to initial states in particle scattering experiment ("prepared states") and they are either in future or paste. Hence the arrow of time.

Realization of intentional action, memory recall, and remote metabolism would rely on same mechanism based on the emission of negative energy signals.

Santeri Satama said...

Couple more questions, I just found out that zero energy ontology is the answer from inflation cosmologists Guth and Victor Stenger (who is BTW today a professional skeptic ;)) to the thermodynamical problem of Big Bang: "Universe could have begun from a state of zero energy and maximum entropy" via quantum fluctuation.
How do you see the relation of ZEO of inflation cosmology and your notion of ZEO of CD? Is CD in itself a limit to WCW and what kind?

Also, can you help to better comprehend the geometric and number theoretical anatomy of CD? From your books I (mis)understand only that it is an 8D dipyramid - or is dimensional structure variable? Any relation to platonic solids or rather regular polytopes ( and can it be assigned figurate_numbers
( and if so, what is the relation of those figurate numbers to zeros of zeta function and infinite primes?

Thanks in advance :) said...

You made questions with a long answer;-). I had to splice it into pieces. Consider first zero energy ontology.

One must be very cautious with terminology. Guth and Stenger mean very different thing when they speak of zero energy state. It is classical state and corresponds to the positive or negative energy part of zero energy state in TGD. To make it clear: the restriction to consider positive energy parts of zero energy states gives something which is counterpart for ordinary positive energy states. Positive and negative energy states correspond to initial and final states of physical event.

This interpretation makes it possible to understand simultaneous Poincare invariance and non-conservation of energy in cosmological scales.

Energy and momentum are aways defined in some scale defined by the size scale of CD. In cosmology CD is very very big. For electron it has duration .1 seconds. This scale dependence of conserved quantities is of central importance.

It also allows to understand the apparent non-conservation of fermion number in coherent states associated with super-conductors with current carriers consisting of fermion pairs

To add confusion, I add that the positive energy parts of quantum states in TGD based cosmology have indeed vanishing energy per comoving volume. Energy density is due to cosmic strings and diverges as 1/a^2, a curvature radius equal to lightcone proper time. The energy per comoving volume is proportional to 1/a^2 times volume proportional to a^3 and thus proportional to a and vanishes as a goes to zero!

BTW, Stenger is familiar to me from discussion groups around 1995. He managed to be completely wrong about quantum entanglement, and very probably his views about quantum and consciousness, and quantum and biology turn about to be completely wrong. I remember how arrogantly he commented my claim that quantum coherence and entanglement are in a key role in living matter. Only 16 years later it is clear that he was completely wrong also here! Also Lubos has this magic touch in his fingers;-). said...

I have written about the relation of TGD based cosmology to inflationary cosmology and article "Do we really understnd the solar system" at . The article starts from a problem related to the models of solar system and ends up to a model for cosmology.

The primordial state contains only cosmic strings for which M^4 projection is 2-D string world sheet. After a phase transition creating space-time sheets the projection to M^4 gradually becomes thicker.

The energy of Kahler magnetic fields associated with magnetic flux tubes takes the role of Higgs like inflaton field. The magnetic energy corresponds to dark energy and creates ordinary matter in phase transitions in which magnetic flux tubes get thicker and longer: this thickening relates to cosmic expansion. This same process occurs in all scales, even in solar scale.

To get CD one can start from a 4-D pyramid having boundary which corresponds to a ball first expanding with light-velocity and then starting to contract. One just replaces every point with CP_2. and obtains the 8-D thing: Cartesian product of
4-D double pyramid with CP_2.

To Santeri:

You asked also about ZEO related things.

The scale of CD comes as a multiple of CP_2 scale and corresponds to secondary p-adic time/length scale L_{2,p}= p*R, R the size of CP_2. Primary p-adic length scale is L_p=sqrt(p)*R.

For electron with p= M_127 one has L_{2,p}=.1 seconds which was a real surprise. Biology and elementary particle physics seem to be deeply correlated. I have tried to formulate this at deeper level in terms of T-duality relating long and short length scales to each other.

See the previous posting . said...

To Santeri:

Sorry for the strange fusion of two separate pieces of answer above to single one.

You asked also about regular isotopes. I have only some impressions.

*Regular isotopes related closely to the hierarchy of ADE type Lie algebras.

*These in turn relate closely to the inclusions of hyperfinite factors of type II_1 which in turn relate very closely to WCW spinors which define HFF of type II_1.

*In TGD framework inclusions in turn characterize finite measurement resolution: the action of included algebra N subset M creates states which can be distinguished from each other in the measurement resolution used. This gives rise to what could be seen as gauge symmetry mathematically.

*For the coset Hilbert spaces M/N the rays are given HFF N rather that complex numbers as in commutative quantum mechanics. This is the TGD view about how non-commutative analogs of Hilbert spaces emerge from finite measurement resolution.

I tried to understand from the book of Lapidus (thanks for Stephen Crowley;-) the description of non-commutative space as coset spaces analogous to M/N but got only a vague impression. This view does need not be equivalent to my own which starts from physics with finite measurement resolution rather than replacing the coordinates of space-time with non-commutative objects. To me this approach looks awkward since it leads immediately to difficulties with general coordinate invariance.

I would introduce non-commutative *only* at the level of Hilbert spaces. At space-time level I would begin from discretization as a counterpart for a finite measurement resolution. Finite measurement resolution means that one performs cutoff in the number of modes of second quantized induced spinor fields. The anti-commutators for cutoff spinor fields at partonic 2-surfaces do not vanish for arbitrary pair of points anymore but only for discrete subset of points identified as end points of a braid.

The coordinates do not become non-commutative. Rather, the induced spinor fields cease to anticommute at generic point pairs of the partonic 2-surface. This allows to circumvent problems with general coordinate invariance.

If one accepts quantum mathematics ( ), which replaces numbers with Hilbert spaces, it might be possible to introduce non-commutativity as counterpart of finite measurement resolution by making space-time points non-commutative quantum Hilbert spaces with rays defined as orbits of sub-algebra defining the measurement resolution.

Ulla said...

Becker found that direct current had strong impact on consciousnes; turned bacward it was gone. Here is a stydy comparing DC and AC currents in brain with astonishing consequences. Seems that stochaistic resonance is something important.

Note also that a ZEO time configuration is built :) And that higher EEG is not automatically higher cognitions/consciousness.

So many misunderstandings are there yet in general.

In another paper the automatic creation of 'rytmic contractions' (for automatic firing?) was mentioned.

the critical process mediating the access to conscious perception is the early transient global increase of phase synchrony of oscillatory activity in the gamma frequency range.

p-adics are making the phase synchrony? Modulation is done by smaller waves? This also seems to work for Murphy et co.

And for acupuncture :)

Ulla said...
Relativistic thermodynamics is proof (?) for ZEO?

Ulla said...

Introduction to Magnetic Monopoles.
A 't Hooft-Polyakov monopole configuration in a lattice field theory simulation. This figure ( was produced using VAPOR from

[54] J. Clyne and M. Rast, A prototype discovery environment for analyzing and visualizing teras-cale turbulent fluid flow simulations, in Proceedings of Visualization and Data Analysis 2005, Jan 2005.
[55] J. Clyne, P. Mininni, A. Norton, and M. Rast, Interactive desktop analysis of high resolution
simulations: application to turbulent plume dynamics and current sheet formation, New J.
Phys 9 (2007).

(I hope you are not ill.)

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Ulla said...
Could one make a diamond-based quantum computer?
A Marshall Stoneham, A H Harker, Gavin W Morley