Saturday, January 15, 2011

More about water memory

The findings of Montagnier and his team could mean a revolution comparable to that sparked by the Origin of Species so that they deserve another posting (and maybe even more;-)). During these years I have learned that there are two kinds of theoreticians. Theoreticians of first kind require that theory explains facts and if not gives up the theory. Theoreticians of second kind require that facts fit the theory and bravely reject the facts that do not.

Also Lubos has commented the findings of HIV Nobelist Montagnier's group and the comments of Lubos reflect excellently the distinction between the theoretician of second kind and good experimentalist. Good experimentalist is ready to accept the reality and this is why discoveries are possible. The theoretician of second kind "knows" before hand what is possible and what is not and tells it aloud and authoritatively. Ironically, Lubos is ready to accept M-theory as the only possible theory of everything despite the fact that there is not a single thread of empirical evidence supporting it but refuses to consider the possibility that biology would be something more than just complex chemistry. Our luck is that there are also theoreticians who are ready to consider the possibility that they do not yet know everything.


Montagnier's work gives support for water memory in terms of representations of some molecules in terms of water molecules or some nano-structures present in water treated in the same manner as the homeopathic remedies are made. What is really amazing is that the representations seem also to realize genetic code. The experimental arrangement stimulates several questions which I try to answer in the framework of TGD inspired model of biology.

  1. The presence of 7 Hz magnetically induced oscillation seems to be necessary for the presence of the effect. What is the role of this radiation whose frequency is not far from the lowest Schumann resonance frequency with nominal value of 7.83 Hz. Recall that this frequency is in the lowest approximation determined by the radius of Earth of alone. The wave length of 7 Hz photons is slightly larger than the circumference of Earth. Could it be that a temporal pattern associated with a single period of 7 Hz oscillation could code for DNA codons. The energies involved are of course ridiculously small as compared to the thermal energy at room temperature and quantal effects are exclued in standard quantum theory.

  2. How water could represent some biologically relevant aspects of molecules? For what kind of molecules this representation does exist? What are the roles of mechanical agitation and dilution in the generation of water memory? Does the 7 Hz frequency near the lowest Schumann resonance frequency relate to this somehow?

  3. How water and electromagnetic radiation could represent genetic code?

Some key ideas of TGD inspired quantum biology

TGD helps to imagine possible answers to these questions. The identification of dark matter as a hierarchy of phases with large Planck constant and the notion of magnetic body (see for instance this - both deriving naturally from basic quantum TGD- are the key notions.

  1. The basic vision is that magnetic body communicates with biological body and controls it by using a generalized variant of EEG consisting of fractal hierarchy of dark photons corresponding to a hierarchy of values of Planck constant (see this) E=hf with large Planck constant implying that even ELF photons can have thermal energies above thermal energy. This is the essential element in the model for the effects of ELF frequencies on vertebrate brain. The transformation of dark photon to a bunch of ELF photons or single high energy photon would be basic mechanisms transforming dark photons to ordinary ones. Biophotons would be dark photons transformed to single dark photon. EEG would represent outcome consting of a bunch of ELF photons.

  2. TGD suggests that dark DNA, RNA,... and even dark aminoacids could have a key role in biological evolution providing kind of virtual world realization of biomolecules. This would make possible controlled evolution analogous to the research and development carried out in industry (see this). This is in conflict with the vision of standard biology according to which the planning of travel phone would be a process in which one throws some random collection of electronic components to a hat and looks whether a travel phone emerges from the hat after sufficiently long waiting period.

    Biological R&D would require that transcription and translation process have dark counterparts. Also the transcription of dark DNA to ordinary DNA and vice versa and even more general processes should be possible. If the water containing ordinary DNA contains its dark variant able by its darkness to leak through the filters used in the experimental situation studied by Montagnier and collaborators, the dark DNA could be able to cheat the polymerase protein so that it interprets dark DNA as a genuine DNA template and starts to generate ordinary DNA. If the magnetic flux tubes coding for DNA are all that is relevant for this, this mechanism would not depend whether the ends of flux tubes contain real or dark DNA.

  3. The dark magnetic flux tubes connecting bio-molecules make it possible for them to recognize and find each other in the dense soup of biomolecules. The reduction of Planck constant for the flux tube brings the bio-molecules near to each other so that catalytic reaction becomes possible. The reconnection process for flux tubes is also in an essential role and involved with ADP-ATP process and would provide elegant realization of codes.

Representations for the genetic code in TGD

TGD suggest several non-standard representations of the genetic code.

  1. Temporal patterns of electromagnetic radiation with some carrier frequency is one possibility. Gariaev's work suggests that temporal patterns of polarization directions of radiation could code for DNA sequences with each nucleotide corresponding to a definite change of polarization direction (see the discussion in here). This would mean a hierarchy of realizations of the code corresponding to different frequency scales with period of radiation defining the duration of the code word.

  2. The TGD inspired model for DNA as topological quantum computer suggests a realization of codons in terms of u, and d quarks and their antiquarks at the ends of magnetic flux tubes connecting DNA nucleotides to lipids of nuclear or cellular membranes. TGD indeed predicts the possibility of several fractally scaled up copies of hadron physics with different mass scales and also dark variants of ordinary hadron physics with the Compton lengths of quarks scaled up while keeping mass scales the same. Entire fractal hierarchy of representations corresponding to carrier frequencies of dark photons could be realized.

  3. One of the most amazing predictions of TGD comes from the model of dark nucleons. The states of dark nucleons are in 1-1 correspondence with DNA, RNA, tRNA, and aminocids and vertebrate genetic code is realized naturally as dark nuclear strings analogous to ordinary nuclei which are also nuclear strings in TGD based model of nuclei. The representation could be based on triplets of magnetic flux tubes with quarks at ends correlating with the genetic code words defined by the states of dark nuclei just like the representation of DNA in DNA as tqc model. A natural guess would be that the size scale of dark nucleon is same as the size scale of single DNA triplet.

What is the role of 7 Hz radiation?

7 Hz is near the frequency of the lowest Schumann resonance representing collective oscillation of the Earth's magnetic field and one can wonder about its role in the experiment of Montagnier and collaborators.

  1. 7 Hz need not provide a representation for genetic code although it could do so. A possible role is as the provider of bio-rhythm and as a possible source of energy in the case that dark photons with energy above thermal energy are in question. TGD inspired theory of consciousness predicts what I call self hierarchy and one can speak about gene expression at the level of organism and even population. Schumann resonance would naturally couple with living matter and couple the magnetic bodies of living systems to the magnetic body of Earth- magnetic Mother Gaia one might say. Flux tubes within flux tubes would be simplest representation for the coupling making possible frequency modulation and also amplitude modulation. Frequency modulation is especially interesting and the song of whales provides a possible concrete example of underlying frequency modulation. The model for hologram generating properties of DNA suggests that the dark photons assignable to 7 Hz radiation pump energy to build up hologrammic representations of DNA.

  2. Cyclotron resonances for ions in the Earth's magnetic field are in 1-100 Hz range and it has been known from seventies that electromagnetic fields in this frequency range have effects of vertebrate brain. These effects look very quantal and correspond to cyclotron frequencies which is .2 Gauss- 2/5 of the nominal value of the Earth's magnetic field. Also the authors of Montagnier article suggest that cyclotron resonances of ions are involved and in TGD inspired model for living body in terms of magnetic bodies cyclotron resonances are in a key role. Cyclotron frequencies could provide a coupling of biologically important ions to Schumann resonance if the flux tubes involved can vary their thickness so that the strength of magnetic field varies by flux conservation.

  3. VLF frequencies above kHz seem to take this role in water memory. The wave lengths and corresponding layers of magnetic bodies are still enormous as compared to that of DNA.

How water could represent molecules?

The TGD inspred mode a model for how how water could represent at least some aspects of at least some molecules is based on earlier ideas (see this) plus some ideas inspired by the findings of Montagnier's group and by the role of ordered water in the self-organization of biomolecules.

  1. The basic idea is that the magnetic body of the molecules represents biologically relevant aspects of molecule in the sense that the cyclotron radiations generated by the magnetic body is responsible for biological control and also receives signals from part of organism in some length and time scales. The mechanical agitation of water involves in the process generating water memories implies that the magnetic bodies of some molecules just drop to water. This is enough for the mimicry of the biomolecules by water.

  2. Water interacts strongly with polar (hydrophilic) molecules so that the polarity of the molecules in question is expected to be very relevant for the process. Polar molecules are covered by a hydrogen bonded layer of ordered water molecules analogs to ice covering. This molecular ice freezes various biomolecules to standard configuration and the feed of energy freezes the ice cover so that processes like protein folding and formation of their aggregates which is central element in the reaction of living matter to external perturbations becomes possible. The natural idea is that the polar molecules having hydrogen bonds with water layer dictate to high degree the structure of the magnetic body.

  3. The mechanical agitation of water could feed the energy needed to induce the splitting of the hydrogen bonds of a polar molecule so that the ice coating to which the magnetic body of the molecule would drop out. The process would be similar to the reaction of biomolecule to external influence. This magnetic body would represent the molecule in terms of cyclotron frequencies and behave as a real molecule as far as the effects caused by cyclotron frequencies are considered. Basically a symbolic representation of the biomolecule would be in question.

This mechanism is obviously very general and the prediction is that water remembers the presence of molecules with polar regions and do not distinguish between molecules with different non-polar regions. These non-polar regions are hydrophobic and tend to be shielded from water. Protein folding is one example of this shielding.

How the magnetic bodies could represent genetic code?

The intriguing finding that about 1/4 of hydrogen atoms of water behave effectively like dark matter in attosecond time scale was one of the first findings motivating the development of ideas about dark matter as large hbar phases and is also of crucial importance for the model of water memory. The TGD based explanation is that dark hydrogen atoms correspond to dark protons with Compton size of order atom size at least. The varying fraction of this phase would explain the large number of anomalies related to the thermodynamics of water.

The proposal is that the splitting of hydrogen bond transforms the hydrogen or at least the proton of hydrogen to a dark nucleon. The states of dark nucleons would correspond to multiplets assignable to DNA, RNA, tRNA, and aminocids. If the state of dark nucleon corresponds to the quark assignable to the end of magnetic flux tube one has a representation of the genetic code in terms of dark nuclear string consisting of protons glued to form (TGD indeed leads to a model of nuclei as nucleon sequencies connected by color magnetic bonds).

How transcription and translation type processes could be realized for dark DNA and how dark DNA and DNA could transform to each other?

Reconnection of magnetic flux tubes allows to imagine a very simple model for how DNA is coded to dark DNA and vice versa. As a matter fact, the process applies to very general class of processes defining a pairing of biomolecules. All that is needed is that the quark pair at the ends of the flux tube to some degree dictates which molecules can form. One can actually imagine a generalization of the genetic code applying to much more general molecules than molecules involved with the genetic code if this mechanism involves dark nucleons at the ends of the magnetic flux tubes involves.

  1. Assume that the nucleotides of dark DNA and conjugate molecules are connected by flux tubes having quark and antiquark at their ends that u, d and their antiquarks correspond in one-one manner to DNA nucleotides so that coding results. Suppose that similar coding takes place for dark DNA in the sense that dark DNA code work is connected by three flux tubes to its conjugate for corresponding dark aminoacid. Assume that both dark and ordinary DNA nucleotides can be be connected to their conjugates by relatively long flux tubes (large hbar) and that they can be also accompanied by short-circuited flux loops. Assume again that genetic code mapping codons to quarks is realized. Similar short circuited closed flux loops could be possible for aminoacids and RNA.

  2. Assume that a reconnection for long flux tube connecting nucleotides and their conjugates and for nucleotide flux loop is possible if corresponding quarks are same so that the assignement realizes genetic code. For instance, a reconnection in the middle of flux tubes connecting dark DNA and its conjugate would generate an ordinary DNA sequence. If this sequence binds to DNA strand and if the reverse of the reconnection process occurs after that, dark DNA sequence becomes coded ordinary DNA sequence. Obviously much more general processes of this kind are possible and are relatively independent of what is at the ends of the flux tubes so that genetic coded would permeate whole biology and determined selection rules of reaction involving all kinds of polar molecules.

What is the role of dilution and agitation?

I have discussed these questions also in the chapter Homeopathy in Many-sheeted Space-time of the book Biosystems as Conscious Holograms. The following discussion involves new ideas inspired by the findings of Montagnier's group.

The role of dilutions in the generation of water memories looks like a mystery and provides strongest weapon for a simple-minded sketic and one can make only guesses in this respect. The situation does not distinguish between DNA and other molecules which water is able to represent. All these molecules could correspond to dark molecules resulting when the hydrogen bonds connecting polar molecule to its water coating split if above ideas are on a right track. Consider now the questions.

  1. Is the dilution necessary in order that the magnetic flux tubes of the molecular magnetic expected to have size of order 100 nm in the solution do not overlap? This would mean that the density of dark DNA in the experiments of Montagnier would be rather low in the experimental situation, maybe something like 1 DNA sequence per volume of cell nucleus. Can so low density explain the effects of polymerase in the experiment of Montagnier's team? Could the critical dilution be the dilution above which the 7 Hz radiation is able to serve as a metabolic resource?

  2. Could it be that the density of dark molecules is actually much higher than the dilution would suggest? This would require replication of dark molecules, which is indeed quite conceivable if dark molecules define a life form preceiding ordinary DNA. The mechanical agitation could provide the metabolic energy for the dark molecules. Dark molecules could also be part of time in lethargic state and wake up only when energy is feeded and replicate just as biomolecules are ice-covered and wake up only when external perturbation feeds energy and induces self-organization. But why would be critical dilution required? Why the density of ordinary molecules must be so small? This is difficult to understand.

  3. Is it the number of dilutions and agitations which matters rather than the density of the ordinary molecules in the final situation? Could the sequence of dilutions induce an evolutionary process analogous to a sequence of environmental catastrophes posing evolutionary pressures and leading to rapid evolution of dark DNA variant able to replicate and survive? Could each mechanical agitation induce quantum phase transitions increasing the value of Planck constant for the flux tubes inducing evolutionary leps and increasing the size scle of the corresponding magnetic body? Could the associated feed of metabolic energy also induce a replication of the dark molecules so that one would have a population with a density much higher than that of the ordinary molecules in the final situation? Whether the number of agitation-dilution processes matters instead of final density of molecules could be tested by using different initial values for the density.

  4. Could the limiting wave length correspond to 7 Hz cyclotron frequency for some relevant ion and therefore also to an evolutionary step making possible to couple to magnetic Mother Gaia. The condition that the frequency corresponds to energy above thermal energy at room temperature would require hbar/hbar0 ==r ≈ 1011. The number of the dilutions should be so high that the molecular evolution reaches this level. As a matter fact, the work of Cyril Smith [Smith] with water memory suggests that r= 2× 1011 is very special in the sense that a transformation for low frequency photons to high frequency photons with fh/fl= 2× 1011 seems to be involved with water memory. Does the maximal value of hbar for the flux tubes correlate with the dilution factor or the number of dilutions inducing 10-fold reduction of density each? Does 10-fold reduction of density correspond to reduction factor which still allows the population to fill the sample completely for a reasonable amount of mechanical agitation?

  5. Cyclotron radiation of dark photons from the magnetic body of dark DNA transforming to ordinary VLF photons serves as a signature for its presence. In the abstract of their article Montagnier group reports following.

    Electromagnetic signals of low frequency have been shown to be durably produced in aqueous dilutions of the Human Imunodeficiency Virus DNA. In vivo, HIV DNA signals are detected only in patients previously treated by antiretroviral therapy and having no detectable viral RNA copies in their blood. We suggest that the treatment of AIDS patients pushes the virus towards a new mode of replication implying only DNA, thus forming a reservoir insensitive to retroviral inhibitors. Implications for new approaches aimed at eradicating HIV infection are discussed.

    "New mode of replication" would correspond in TGD framework to replication of magnetic bodies of DNA representing genes as dark nucleon sequences and would allow HIV DNA to survive despite the treatment.

The idea about rapid micro-evolution taking place in human time scale for the magnetic bodies is as radical as it is fascinating but is in principle testable. I have considered alternative explanations but they are not so simple as this one. I do not of course believe that attitudes in biological sciences would be mature for testing this kind of ideas. Big changes in the world view are painful and take place slowly and existing theoretical hegemony is the worst obstacle in the progress.

I am however an optimist: a real understanding what makes HIV so resistant to ordinary treatments making possible to develop better cures of it could force even skeptics to accept the facts.

[Smith] C. Smith (2001),Learning From Water, A Possible Quantum Computing Medium. Talk in CASYS'2001, 5th international conference on Computing Anticipating Systems held in Liege, Belgium, August 13-18. Abstract book published by Chaos.

For a more organized summary of TGD based model for the findings of Montagnier's team see the article DNA Waves and Water at my homepage.


Ulla said...

You see, Lubos acts so EMOTIONALLY :)
But there are also other doing so.

There has happened a change tough. He publish these comments. Earlier he just deleted them.

When I do my treatments and someone is severly ill, the recovery cannot happen quickly. Then he/she would become very, very bad. It is like turning a big ship in hard storm. This is something alike?

There is so much written about quantum biology, and they refuse to see it. Astonishing.

Matti Pitkänen said...

I tried to publish a comment in Lubos blog but the program insisted that the comment is longer than 3000 characters, which it was not. This was very probably a problem of software.

Lubos is in the same position as I was during my innocent student days. Let us hope that he is approaching the transition point when doubts begin to leak into his belief system!

I really believed on the reductionistic dogmas for the first seven student years. After than I had to work hardly to keep my beliefs and the sick world view of materialistic science made also myself sick. The progress of TGD initiated a healing process which sowed further seeds of doubt but also concrete ideas about a more realistic world view.

I remember myself asking whether it could be really true that even chemical bond would something totally different that I was taught to believe. Could reductionism really be an illusion? Could entire science community be deadly wrong? Who is mad? Community? Or me as objectivity requires to conclude? This was really painful since I desperately wanted to know. Also the questions about consciousness began to pop up as I realized that the world of materialistic science is dead as stone.

Nowadays and with this background I can just laugh for myself who took chemical bond so deadly seriously. I should however not forget that skeptics are Pavlovian dogs just as I was for my first seven student years - conditioned to believe the dogmas by a series of humiliations called scientific education. Even a slightest doubt induces mental image about public humiliation in their mind.

In any case, revolution has begun in biology on many fronts- and also in physics by the way- and is interesting to see how many decades it will take.

Anonymous said...

Hello Matti:

I enjoy your postings and your overall body of work.

I would just like to mention that the TGD video links are down.

If you have the time to remedy this problem, I would be appreciative.


Matti Pitkänen said...

Thank you for noticing. The company behind the videos suffered bankruptcy and I forgot to remove the link. I removed it now.


Ulla said...

Oh, my. So long text - to me?

I have also seen the same message, and always if I try to copy text from Words. The html-code becomes too big, I suppose.

In my student times I succeeded to keep things apart, and the new world-view did not hinder my studies. Only afterwards, when I tried to explain the body functions the pieces didn't fit. That's why the ad hoc assumptions must be made.

Then I began to realize something was really bad, as if everything was turned upside down. If you changed the pieces the picture was much clearer. Then I met the meridians and chakras, and WAU. They took everything to the consciousness-level. Then I met you, and your ideas are really something.

I become so angry and frustrated when I meet that kind of arrogance as on Lubos site. How tremendly foolish they can be in their belief. But at the same time I can understand the brainwashing they have suffered, and I feel pity for them.

And I provoke them a little. Maybe they will see something then? The reaction when I said I was a reflexologist was waited. I wanted to see his horror:) He did not even know what it was :) But he knows for sure it is 'magic'. An educated man? Unbelievable.

A better New Year, Matti? Take away your shield, I am no threat. I just have some questions to ask :) Always and for ever. Your texts are a treasure. Maybe I can contribute with something?

Zephir said...

We should realize a few aspects of physical system involved there.

At first, the peculiar structure of water. Due the angled shape of water molecules and strong hydrogen bonds between them the water consists of tiny clusters containing roughly 230 molecules per cluster. The internal pressure of water inside of these clusters exceeds more then 27.000 atm, which results into well known fact, the volume of fluid water is just 92% of the volume of ice.

The evidence of water cluster formation is based on the finding of X-ray spectroscopy, there exists only two hydrogen bridges available per molecule, so that the formation of chained flat structures similar to sponge or foam is preferred. Interesting aspect of quantum behavior of water clusters is their shape memory, which originates from quantum mirage phenomena. The conformal change of shape in particular place of cluster surface is followed by redistribution of charge density, so that the molecules of water are attached/removed to cluster from opposite side in such a way, the original cluster shape is retained like of piece plasticine, although it undergoes rapid Brownian motion as a whole. In AWT the analogous mechanism keeps the shape of particles during their travel through vacuum foam.

From the above reasons, each water cluster propagates through density fluctuations of water like solid body of much large effective mass, then the single water molecule and it's deformed with electrostatical forces of neighbouring anions like piece of plasticine, which retains its shape even during neverending collisions with another molecules of water..

Compact clusters of water molecules is behaving like groups of balls in Newton cradle, which maintains its shape, albeit another balls are colliding with it from both sides. The same effect at the quantum scale is described as so called the quantum mirage. As the result, the shape of clusters remains quite independent to the lifetime of individual hydrogen linkages between molecules.

Thereofore the water clusters could maintain their shape a long time after the surface active chemicals were removed from water solution. While function of many proteins depends on their spatial configuration, rather then their composition, the shape memory of water clusters could explain the biological activity of diluted solutions, from which most of molecules has been removed with dilution followed with prolonged shaking, i.e. the "dynamization". We shouldn't forget, even the maximal dilution cannot remove molecules adsorbed at surfaces of vials, so such solutions can be never completely free of chemicals.

Another anomalous aspect of DNA molecules consist of fact, they're formed with very large, organized chains of hydrated basis, which are strongly protonized. Such molecule can propagate its chiral distribution of charge density into large volume and it can induce the same charge distribution inside of plastic water clusters by polarization. Actually we have no relevant data about behavior of highly organized, structured polymeric anions. Common hydrogel polymers are both unstructured, both unorganized, whereas DNA molecule is behaving like single giant liquid crystal. Our everyday experience with solutions of short simple molecules isn't easily transferable to such system.

Zephir said...

The rigid spiral structure of DNA macromolecules is unique with the fact, large number of ions have fixed mutual positions. For single ions or dipole such structure would indeed appear amorphous, but not for more complex ions, like the rigid DNA fragments or water clusters. The larger these fragments will be, the more strongly they will be locked at distance in certain positions, corresponding the location of these fragments inside of original molecules. Basically it's very classical electrostatic, just applied to very complex multipoles.

In chemistry unexplained "learning behaviour" takes place during the formation of crystals. When a new chemical compound is first created it will crystallize slowly, but when other researchers repeat the experiment they find it occurs more quickly. Chemists generally attribute this to better experiments, the mistakes of the first are documented and not repeated.

Anonymous said...

Do you still have those videos? Would you consider uploading them to another website for streaming or download?

Matti Pitkänen said...

Yes. I have them. I am not however sure whether my broken english and Buster Keaton like mimic art can do much for propagating TGD;-). You could of course look some video. I do not feel insulted if you find that it is better to bury these videos deep underground;-).

Matti Pitkänen said...

To Zephir:

The anomalies of water are numerous and my proposal is that the presence of dark portion of water makes water two-phase system allowing to understand various anomalies: for instance, those challenging standard thermodynamics of single phase systems.

The idea of assigning morphogenetic fields with crystal formation is so radical that it would require a lot of documentation. Interesting in any case.

Matti Pitkänen said...

Peter Gariaev sent me a link to an article of Montagnier group. It deserves a comment. In the abstract Montagnier group reports following.

Electromagnetic signals of low frequency have been shown to be durably produced in aqueous dilutions of the Human Imunodeficiency Virus DNA. In vivo, HIV DNA signals are detected only in patients previously treated by antiretroviral therapy and having no detectable viral RNA copies in their blood. We suggest that the treatment of AIDS patients pushes the virus towards a new mode of replication implying only DNA, thus forming a reservoir insensitive to retroviral inhibitors. Implications for new approaches aimed at eradicating HIV infection are discussed.

Cyclotron radiation of dark photons from the magnetic body of dark DNA transforming to ordinary VLF photons serves as a signature for its presence. "New mode of replication" would correspond in TGD framework to replication of magnetic bodies of DNA representing genes as dark nucleon sequences and would allow HIV DNA to survive despite the treatment.

This raises optimism. Skeptics are immune against rational arguments but not against fear. If the new understanding of life allows to develop better cures against HIV, even skeptics might be ready to accept the facts.

Ulla said...

The human genome is mostly made of old viruses. Around 80%, and this is the regulating part of our DNA? How is that possible? There is even a possibility they get activated again. So viruses never get extinct. The memory of old pandemies is saved in the genome. Maybe the viruses also was responsible for hierarchy shifts because of their small size(?) as between apes and humans or human/human races? Schizophrenia / autism genes has been mentioned. Is they then old viruses?

The ORME get more and more interesting...

And why is UV-light antibacterial AND mutagenic? Life lies between UV and IR frequencies, but may respond up to 20000Hz, maybe more, and down to fractions of an Hz, incredibly long waves. Is it possible the magnetic body reacts?

This is a highly interesting link.

The origins of viruses are shrouded in mystery, but advances in genomics and the discovery of highly complex giant DNA viruses have stimulated new hypotheses that DNA viruses were involved in the emergence of the eukaryotic cell nucleus, and that they are worthy of being considered as living organisms.

viruses are now center stage: they might have been there at the origin of DNA, might have played a central role in the emergence of the eukaryotic cell, and might even have been the cause of partitioning of biological organisms into the three domains of life: Bacteria, Archaea and Eukarya.

RNA-based viruses infecting RNA-based cells would have acquired an RNA-to-DNA modification system to resist cellular RNA-degrading enzymes (the RNA equivalent of present-day bacterial restriction and modification systems).

Ulla said...

Ulla said...

Mae Van Ho has an article too

These findings are analogous to observations in highly diluted homeopathic remedies that claim to be efficacious even after all molecules of the original substance must have been diluted away. But there is one important difference. For the first time, the putative memory of the water invoked for homeopathic activity, in the form of specific electromagnetic signals, can be clearly and independently detected. This is the major breakthrough that Montagnier and his team achieved. It should now be possible, in principle, to distinguish homeopathic preparations that are active from those that are not. This alone would do much for advancing the science of homeopathy, and contribute towards our understanding of water.

Ulla said...
What is the nature of the EM signal emitting nanostructures?

The nanostructures were not destroyed by treatments with enzymes that destroy RNA, DNA or protein (RNAse A, DNAse 1, proteinase K); only by heating at 70 ˚C for 30 minutes, or freezing for 1 hour at -20 ˚C or -60 ˚C. Treatment with lithium cations, known to affect H-bonding of water molecules, reduced the intensity of the signals, while the range of the positive dilution remained unchanged.

From a biologist that has realized maybe there are more under the sky than science today knows of.

Matti Pitkänen said...

To Ulla:

The layers of magnetic body would react to light at various frequency scales. The larger the size scale of the magnetic body part, the lower frequency. Size of body part is of order of corresponding wavelength. In water memory at least frequencies above 10^4 are present and Montagnier's work suggests also 7 Hz region.

Cyclotron radiation from the magnetic body would be its signature representing also about DNA what is biologically most relevant. To this radiation other magnetic bodies and biomolecules react. The empirical test is to identify frequencies assignable to Na, Cl, Ca, etc.. Harmonics of the basic frequency and predictable frequency ratios are the telltale test.

The nanostructures could correspond to magnetic bodies of HIV DNA or RNA. Or to be precise, magnetic bodies of the system

molecule+ ordered water layer around it.

When hydrogen bonds connecting molecule to this ice layer split the magnetic body would split out of the molecule. Mechanical agitation would cause this splitting and also feed metabolic energy.

If proton of hydrogen bond is transformed to dark proton. DNA triplet would correspond to single dark proton and its internal state would code for particular DNA triplet. One dark proton with single DNA triplet would be generated- one hydrogen bond split.

The high dilution need not be as such the secret. Rather, the number of times the dilution and shaking occurs could matter. The idea is simple: dilution is a horrible evolutionary catastrophe for dark DNA or RNA population taking the population density to 1/10:th but shaking would provide the metabolic energy allowing dark RNA or DNA to replicate and fill the land again;-).

Shakings and dilutions also serve as evolutionary pressure forcing evolutionary leaps increasing the hbar of the magnetic body of the molecule so that finally it would have EEG (7 Hz) and could couple to the magnetic body of Mother Gaia;-) receiving perhaps metabolic energy and motherly advice in this manner;-).

Viruses might operate between dark DNA or RNA and RNA. Maybe dark RNA learned first to produce RNA sequences and later these learned to use cells to transform them to DNA.

Ulla said...

If this is true you need to moderate your theory a little :) Magnetic body can percieve on its own. You already say magnetic body is conscious.

In fact, when the homeopathy was discovered it was exactly the repeated dilutions 1:10 and the rigorous shakings that was the difference. It doesn't work if you dilute directly, it has to be stepwise, with shaking between. the pills must be adminstered under the tongue and melt there half an hour before food ingestion. The direct skin-contact is essential. This same transfer mechanism as with the DNA is working also then?

With intrasound the frequencies is below 1Hz, and the resonance of the body ought to be impossible. But humans react. Also 7 Hz is too low, human body size corresponds to 60 Hz, or the highest brainwaves. So we think with our magnetic body? Huping is right? Magnetic brain is bigger than our body. Can it be harmonic modulations, that takes it down to the body-level?

Could electrons and protons react directly also to low frequencies? This would mean a very big body?

Water is also hexagonal in its structure.

My link tells the possible story of how RNA became DNA. It was our first immune system, a shield against virus. Then first the cellular membranes were built. This follows exactly the complexity ladder.

Thanks Matti. Now you begin to realize how hard it is for a biologist to see this new world? The brainwashing is quite efficient :)

donkerheid said...

This is a shocking interview with Montagnier.
It's incredible that cancer and AIDS are very possibly just hoaxes!

Matti Pitkänen said...

I see brain and body as a machine which magnetic body uses to build standardized sensory percepts and cognitive representations.

Thought bubbles correspond to p-adic space-time sheets and have the size of the Universe. Really! Cognitive representations are always in finite space-time region since they belong to intersection of real and p-adic surfaces and inside personal causal diamond!

One can speak loosely and say that magnetic body is conscious. More precise statement would be that conscious experiences contain information also about magnetic body but the contribution from body and brain specialized to act as mental image factories contribute most to mental images in wake-upe state. Sleep state is different but we do not remember too much of it.

The view of Montagnier is quite shocking. What Montagnier sees as a hoax is that only vaccines apply against HIV. Montagnier emphasizes that keeping immune system in a good shape could bve enough and Africans would need help in this respect. Medical industry however wants to sell drugs as we know.

Ulla said...

In fact there is a doctor in US, Barry Sears (search at his name) who have done trials on humans with HIV. If they had the right kind of food they could live quite normally without getting AIDS. Our food stresses us also, what we usually not think of (except when we get diabetic). The food recommendations are also done by money interests, (and according to the global ecologic situation).

He talks of the importance of the omega 3 fatty acids. We get too much omga 6 today. He is an fatty acid expert.

In what way can the magnetic body have sensations of its own?

Matti Pitkänen said...

To Ulla:

It is somewhat misleading to assign sensations to only magnetic body or biological body. Magnetic body and biological body are single unit. One can only say that most percepts are built by sensory system in biological body.

A good example is train illusion or feeling of falling when you are near cliff. Usually - this in TGD Universe- this sensation would result from the accelerated motion of biological body with respect to magnetic body affecting the interference patters of dark photon radiation between biological and magnetic body analogous to a dynamical hologram.

In these illusions it is magnetic body which is in accelerated motion with respect to biological body and produces which neuroscientists would call hallucination.

The sensation of falling itself involves both magnetic and biological body. The accelerated system is what can be said to cause the sensation.

Also the night-time experiences in which one is out of body in the roof of room would be virtual world experiences in which it is magnetic body or its part which moves such that the illusion results. Maybe magnetic body uses a chart of room realized either at the level of brain or magnetic body. It is also quite possible that room itself has magnetic body!

Ulla said...

But how is it then possible to look down at yourself from a position under the roof? Can it be the magnetic brain that looks? Then it would have superpositions with the normal brain?

This would be most simple explained if the magnetic body could percieve? If the magnetic brain is under the roof and looks down on yourself, what is then percieving? Your normal brain couldn't possibly look down at yourself from outside of itself.

Anonymous said...


In regards to the magnetic body, I have a few questions.

How does the magnetic body "emerge" out of the magnetosphere and become assigned to a human?

Is it a reincarnation-like process? Is the magnetic body "reused" from human-to-human? Or is the magnetic body wholly unique to each human?


Ulla said...

You can even FEEL the waves and the wellness in your body up there under the roof. No pain. Pain is dissipation?

The ˜a operators represents the system’s environment; this behaves as the time-reversed image of the dissipative system since the energy flux in-coming into it
is obtained by time-reversal of the energy flux out-going from the dissipative system, and vice-versa. The environment ˜a operators are thus time-reversed mirror modes of the brain system. Their introduction is necessary in order to set up the formalism for the dissipative system. In such a formalism the environment is thus described as the time-reversed copy, the Double, of the dissipative system.

we have seen that the environment is described in the dissipative many-body model as the system timereversed copy, its Double. This represents the environment as seen from the system. The inter-relation between the system (brain) and the environment is thus the relation of the system with its Double. What we have said in the previous Section may be rephrased in terms of a dialog with the Double, which is a dynamical one since there is a continuous reciprocal updating, expressing the system’s dynamical view of the world. Such a dialog also implies the emotion of novelty and sometimes the surprise or astonishment of a freshly acquired different, perhaps even completely different, view of the world.

G. Vitiello, My Double Unveiled (John Benjamins, Amsterdam, 2001).

OBs the second law changes at very short distances, as in 2D, where this picture may be created. This is near the Z0-point? No arrow of time there?

Maybe this is an answer?
Beats recur at theta rates (3-7 Hz), at which the order parameter transiently approaches zero and microscopic activity becomes disordered. (- Or coherent? my comm. He assumes the consciousness is created in the brain?)

Unknown said...

You should consider redoing and uploading those TGD videos to Youtube or Vimeo, with clean and concise slides (Powerpoint or something similar) as the structure. The videos were interesting but the general structure of the talk was hard to follow at times.
At least you should upload the old material somewhere.

Matti Pitkänen said...

To Anonymous:

Magnetic body is the notion which distinguishes TGD from Maxwell's theory. Practically every physical system creates magnetic field irrespective of whether one believes in Maxwell or TGD. Already in standard theory one talks about quantization of magnetic flux.

In TGD framework this field the quanta of magnetic field correspond quite literally pieces of space-time. Magnetic field decomposes to flux tubes and sheets which are space-time surfaces with boundary. This brings in very rich topological structures in macroscopic scales.

In particular, it becomes possible to say that particular flux tube belongs to particular physical system. In Maxwell's theory this is not possible since magnetic field at particular space-time point is superposition of fields from different sources. This motivates the notion of magnetic body.

About what happens to magnetic body after biological death is an interesting question, one can make only make guesses and guesses depend on mood on happens to have;-). Magnetic body might remain in which case we would continue to exist as conscious entities after biological death but enjoying very different consciousness since sensory input and intentional actions would not contribute to the experience. Perhaps it would be some kind of Nirvana;-).

Magnetic body might find some other interesting biological body to attach to and go all this mess through again;-).

The answers to this kind of questions depend much on detailed model for how experienced time and geometric time relate to each other and I do not dare to claim that my views would final about this.

In any case, biological evolution would involve also evolution of magnetic bodies and this evolution could be much more important than the evolution assigned to genes and biological body. Magnetic bodies would distinguish between us and our cousins.

Of course, this vision differs so radically from
the reductionistic biology as chemistry view that it will take long time before anyone dares to take it seriously in academic circles.

Matti Pitkänen said...

To Janne:

Thank you for suggestion. Media professional could do the editing elegantly and add graphics. For me this is too painful and time consuming and the outcome would in any case fail to satisfy professional standards.

If I were a millionaire I would hire this kind of professional immediately but unfortunately I am living below the poverty threshold and basic metabolic needs are challenging enough in this kind of situation;-).

Matti Pitkänen said...

To Ulla:

One can say that magnetic body perceives but if it is able to build percepts it must use similar machinery as brain does.

In my own strange experiences I am not looking my body from the roof but my body is there. I am doing all kinds of test to check whether I am dreaming or not and I am unable to decide. Then I wake up.

I also see my body lying in bed but it looks very surreal- what is amusing that the body is in kind of wavy motion- like plants growing in flowing water. I hear also the sounds from environment as extremely intense. I have similar experience also at the moment of wake-up often. This is third person experience about myself as in OBEs in which one sees oneself as outsider: I hear my horrible snoring and for a moment wonder who it is. In this kind of situation magnetic body would be the perceiver but need not be the builder of percept itself.

In some of these experiences the sound of refrigerator began to amplify and I began to resonate with it and experienced it to be a conscious entity. Frightening and fascinating. I was trying to decide where I dare let it go and fuse with it since this it seemed to want me to do. I did not have the courage! Perhaps this was my luck!

I interpret this as dreaming and produced by virtal sensory input from magnetic body to brain to retina: this explains also REM during dreams. This virtual input is always present and necessary for building standardized mental images but it dominates in dreams and hallucinations. I have a model for the virtual sensory input in terms of dark photons defining additional communication mechanism besides neural signaling.

Of course, what these magnetic bodies carrying dark matter can do is guess work. The simplest assumption is that brain and body are specialized to build percepts- either from external world or purely virtual ones.

Ulla said...

In my experiencies my 'magnetic body'is floating and experiencing and my real body is still (= two selves). It suits well the OBE experiencies in operations etc. Maybe your was levitation with no separation of body and mind?

About the refrigerator it was the hum, between 10-60 Hz mostly. A magnetic loop or difference because of bad earthings? Sound has a peculiar minds-unifying capacity.

The em-spectra is not growing, it is making sub-systems. You have them all in >0 Hz (?), which can be seen as a zero point? How does the em-spectrum look like then 'on the other side'? It must be bigger. A much bigger CD (personality?), compare reincarnation.

This is also the consciousness-point. Everything above theta is disturbances (as the 40Hz),and the >0Hz is doing the sorting procedure and 'find' the meaning? So,in fact there is the knowledge too? And memory?

You had something written also about the soul, but I can't find it. You should have a search engine:) This is so hard topics with so little to go after, so it cannot be said to be science, of course. But somewhere we have to start. Own experiencies (you said it) are always good to begin from.

Unknown said...

Yes indeed, Powerpoint is painful. There are chalkboard and webcam type of online presentations out there too, including big university lectures. Not much elegant editing in those either.

I think there are lots of people who would like to learn more about TGD and something like this would make it lot more accessible.

Matti Pitkänen said...

The simple manner to solve the problems would be allowance of academic position in which I could have courses on TGD and to have students. Academic support is important: no-one starts to study something as big and difficult as TGD if there is no guarantee that he or she is paid for it!

This is however completely out of question in a country like Finland. There is only single physics blogger in Finland besides me. The explanation is simple: writing a science blog can destroy academic career in Finland! As Brecht said: Finland is a country in which people hush with two languages.

Mere web communications do not work since they support superficiality. One clicks the link and spends few seconds at the page before the next click!

Ulla said...
DNA Caught Rock 'N Rollin': On Rare Occasions DNA Dances Itself Into a Different Shape
From PeSla